400v charging upgrade - now a must have with Tesla network in NA?

daveo4EV

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Hello,

I had initially added in the option for the 400 volt dc 150 kw option, butresearching this for Nort America, I happened to know a couple of facts

1) literally all dc chargers in NA are above 400 volts. Tesla superchargers are at 480 volts.
2) 400 volt dc chargers are in Europe and they are in minority.
If interested have a look the video before especially at 12:31

Hope that helps
480 is “400V” - 400V is an abbreviation - you’d need 650 or 700V to “trigger” 800V charging

I’ve pulled into several “800V” stations and gotten a 400V session negotiated by the car & the station and then charged at more than 50 kW

so I’d still suggest this option is better than not having it cause you never know when/where/how you will or won’t get 800V session

also you’ll definately need this for any future supercharger compatibility above 50 kW (_IF_ the adapter allows for more than 50 kW)
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Artman

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480 is “400V” - 400V is an abbreviation - you’d need 650 or 700V to “trigger” 800V charging

I’ve pulled into several “800V” stations and gotten a 400V session negotiated by the car & the station and then charged at more than 50 kW

so I’d still suggest this option is better than not having it cause you never know when/where/how you will or won’t get 800V session

also you’ll definately need this for any future supercharger compatibility above 50 kW (_IF_ the adapter allows for more than 50 kW)
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configrepeater

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480 is “400V” - 400V is an abbreviation - you’d need 650 or 700V to “trigger” 800V charging

I’ve pulled into several “800V” stations and gotten a 400V session negotiated by the car & the station and then charged at more than 50 kW

so I’d still suggest this option is better than not having it cause you never know when/where/how you will or won’t get 800V session

also you’ll definately need this for any future supercharger compatibility above 50 kW (_IF_ the adapter allows for more than 50 kW)

Thank you for pointing this out to me. This was important to know, I tried scouring the internet and had no idea about abbreviations of voltage options here. My dealer did not know about this either.
 

daveo4EV

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Thank you for pointing this out to me. This was important to know, I tried scouring the internet and had no idea about abbreviations of voltage options here. My dealer did not know about this either.
no problem - it’s all very very confusing - and even more difficult to tell how/what voltage any particular stations is using vs. what it’s supposed to be using vs. what is possible…

the general sentiment is that all new chargers and many existing chargers in north america are 800 volt installs - this is correct and on the face of it should simplify the decision making

but for example this station…

https://maps.apple.com/?ll=36.801708,-121.664154&q=Unknown Location&_ext=EiQpAAAAYJ5mQkAxAAAAgIFqXsA5AAAAYJ5mQkBBAAAAgIFqXsA=

is an 800 volt capable station - but every time I’ve used it I’ve only gotten 400V sessions - now the reasons for this are unclear:
  • bug in the station software negotiating with the Taycan?
  • bug in the porsche software negotiating with the Station?
  • would the station _EVER_ do 800V? would need another vehicle to test with
    • there aren’t that many 800V EV‘s to try out
  • is the presence of the 400V/150kW charger in my Taycan causing it to use a 400V session?
    • we’d need station and vehicle logs to tell
    • i.e. if I didn’t have the 400V/150kW charger would the Taycan ask for an receive a 800V session
  • environmental conditions at the time of the charging session
    • time, temperature, local battery storage boosters, what ever???
what is clear at this station is unlike other stations it actually shows voltage and amps on the display screen - and I routinely get more than 50 kW while charging here - so I don’t believe that would happen without the 400V/150kW charging option…

but other charging networks it’s less clear of an advantage - most stations are 50 kW or less, and the ones that claim they can do more are all 800V stations that I’ve personally visited/found online.

so this feature remaings clearly in the fuzzy territory for “advantage” - I fault Porsche for even making it an option - Porsche is a premimum brand, their EV should always strive for performance - which also means fastest charging speed - it shouldn’t be an option at all IMHO - it should just be standard - and at $460 it’s one of the cheapest options on the menu so it’s a trivial change (almost less money than Porsche charges for a bare 12” supply cable option for the PMCC).

the standard charging configuration for a Taycan should be documented as follows for North American (this is not the case so the list below is aspirational)
  • Max L2 AC charging rate: 11 kw (48 amps w/60 amp breaker)***
    • optional Maximum L2 AC charge rate booster: 19.2 kW (80 amps w/100 amp breaker)***
  • Max 400V FastDC charge rate: 150 kW
  • Max 800V FastDC charge rate: 270 kW
  • PMC+/PMCC - max charge rate 9.6 kW w/NEMA 14-50/6-50 plug type (40 amps w/50 amp breaker)
  • *** - non-Porsche North American EVSE required to achieve these charge rate - do not consult your local dealer for more information because they are hopelesslly confused by EV’s.
    • EVSE’s with greater than 40 amp charge rates must be non-mobile/hardwired due to North American electrical code standards and regional municipal building codes.
I personally remained convinced it’s better to have it and never use it, then not have it and then spend an eternity at a random DCFast chargers where if you’d spent $460 you’d be there and gone in 1/3rd the time.

but I also have to give the people who says it shouldn’t matter and will likely never be used their prop’s - it’s hard to prove this will be a useful feature and you could never “invoke” this upgrade during your entire ownership period, which means you’ve “wasted” $460

it remains to be seen if this will be useful in the context of Tesla Superchargers because we do not yet know or can even reasonably speculate as to what the capabilities of any Supercharger ——> CCS DCFast adapter will be - the car may be capabile of supercharger 150kW+ charging, but the adpater could be the limiting factor - leaving this feature once again untapped potential.

it’s a hard call from a pure will I ever use it proposition? but I think it’s an easy call for a $150k + vehicle and the overall cost of hte option vs. potential benefit could be signifcant - it’s way way way better of an option than the $1200++++++ 19.2 kW North Americian option where I’m fairly certain ultilization will be super low to non-existent unless you personally have or spend thousands of $$$ on a home 100 amp EVSE install - which if you do it will work and work for your every day. But the cost of the 19.2 kW charging booster (all in) vs. $460 for a 400V/150 kW option seems an easy box to tick…in my mind.
 


configrepeater

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no problem - it’s all very very confusing - and even more difficult to tell how/what voltage any particular stations is using vs. what it’s supposed to be using vs. what is possible…

the general sentiment is that all new chargers and many existing chargers in north america are 800 volt installs - this is correct and on the face of it should simplify the decision making

but for example this station…

https://maps.apple.com/?ll=36.801708,-121.664154&q=Unknown Location&_ext=EiQpAAAAYJ5mQkAxAAAAgIFqXsA5AAAAYJ5mQkBBAAAAgIFqXsA=

is an 800 volt capable station - but every time I’ve used it I’ve only gotten 400V sessions - now the reasons for this are unclear:
  • bug in the station software negotiating with the Taycan?
  • bug in the porsche software negotiating with the Station?
  • would the station _EVER_ do 800V? would need another vehicle to test with
    • there aren’t that many 800V EV‘s to try out
  • is the presence of the 400V/150kW charger in my Taycan causing it to use a 400V session?
    • we’d need station and vehicle logs to tell
    • i.e. if I didn’t have the 400V/150kW charger would the Taycan ask for an receive a 800V session
  • environmental conditions at the time of the charging session
    • time, temperature, local battery storage boosters, what ever???
what is clear at this station is unlike other stations it actually shows voltage and amps on the display screen - and I routinely get more than 50 kW while charging here - so I don’t believe that would happen without the 400V/150kW charging option…

but other charging networks it’s less clear of an advantage - most stations are 50 kW or less, and the ones that claim they can do more are all 800V stations that I’ve personally visited/found online.

so this feature remaings clearly in the fuzzy territory for “advantage” - I fault Porsche for even making it an option - Porsche is a premimum brand, their EV should always strive for performance - which also means fastest charging speed - it shouldn’t be an option at all IMHO - it should just be standard - and at $460 it’s one of the cheapest options on the menu so it’s a trivial change (almost less money than Porsche charges for a bare 12” supply cable option for the PMCC).

the standard charging configuration for a Taycan should be documented as follows for North American (this is not the case so the list below is aspirational)
  • Max L2 AC charging rate: 11 kw (48 amps w/60 amp breaker)***
    • optional Maximum L2 AC charge rate booster: 19.2 kW (80 amps w/100 amp breaker)***
  • Max 400V FastDC charge rate: 150 kW
  • Max 800V FastDC charge rate: 270 kW
  • PMC+/PMCC - max charge rate 9.6 kW w/NEMA 14-50/6-50 plug type (40 amps w/50 amp breaker)
  • *** - non-Porsche North American EVSE required to achieve these charge rate - do not consult your local dealer for more information because they are hopelesslly confused by EV’s.
    • EVSE’s with greater than 40 amp charge rates must be non-mobile/hardwired due to North American electrical code standards and regional municipal building codes.
I personally remained convinced it’s better to have it and never use it, then not have it and then spend an eternity at a random DCFast chargers where if you’d spent $460 you’d be there and gone in 1/3rd the time.

but I also have to give the people who says it shouldn’t matter and will likely never be used their prop’s - it’s hard to prove this will be a useful feature and you could never “invoke” this upgrade during your entire ownership period, which means you’ve “wasted” $460

it remains to be seen if this will be useful in the context of Tesla Superchargers because we do not yet know or can even reasonably speculate as to what the capabilities of any Supercharger ——> CCS DCFast adapter will be - the car may be capabile of supercharger 150kW+ charging, but the adpater could be the limiting factor - leaving this feature once again untapped potential.

it’s a hard call from a pure will I ever use it proposition? but I think it’s an easy call for a $150k + vehicle and the overall cost of hte option vs. potential benefit could be signifcant - it’s way way way better of an option than the $1200++++++ 19.2 kW North Americian option where I’m fairly certain ultilization will be super low to non-existent unless you personally have or spend thousands of $$$ on a home 100 amp EVSE install - which if you do it will work and work for your every day. But the cost of the 19.2 kW charging booster (all in) vs. $460 for a 400V/150 kW option seems an easy box to tick…in my mind.
Completely agree with the utility logic here, especially if it is not one of the expensive options in the configuration. My only concern was sometimes the option may be counterproductive. For example, the optional 19.2kw ac charging option prevented MY 20 and MY21 cars from having the plug and charge option,(it is fixed for MY 22). I only hope having a 400 v 150 kW dc charging option would not theoretically limit us at places which can offer both 400v and 800v charging options. Again, this is all presupposition here and I do not have any facts to back this up. I personally am convinced by your discussion and your experience to go for this option. Once again, thank you.
 

daveo4EV

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For example, the optional 19.2kw ac charging option prevented MY 20 and MY21 cars from having the plug and charge option,(it is fixed for MY 22).
yeah I hear you - Porsche really screwed up on that one - and I think removed it from the options list pretty soon after it became available - who knows what the 400V/150 kW option actually does or what problems it may or may not be causing - the real story here: this is way way too hard to sort out and way way too much work…

this all needs to be simplified - and I think we’re on our way - but right now this stuff is a options-trap with many ways to go but no clear way out.

good luck with your build - you should love your Taycan - I know I love mine.
 


andrewket

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Completely agree with the utility logic here, especially if it is not one of the expensive options in the configuration. My only concern was sometimes the option may be counterproductive. For example, the optional 19.2kw ac charging option prevented MY 20 and MY21 cars from having the plug and charge option,(it is fixed for MY 22). I only hope having a 400 v 150 kW dc charging option would not theoretically limit us at places which can offer both 400v and 800v charging options. Again, this is all presupposition here and I do not have any facts to back this up. I personally am convinced by your discussion and your experience to go for this option. Once again, thank you.
It only stopped MY21’s. 20’s never had P&C and Porsche hasn’t said they ever will.
 

chrisk

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480 is “400V” - 400V is an abbreviation - you’d need 650 or 700V to “trigger” 800V charging

I’ve pulled into several “800V” stations and gotten a 400V session negotiated by the car & the station and then charged at more than 50 kW

so I’d still suggest this option is better than not having it cause you never know when/where/how you will or won’t get 800V session

also you’ll definately need this for any future supercharger compatibility above 50 kW (_IF_ the adapter allows for more than 50 kW)
For the first time today I saw the new Chargepoint DC stations. Their old DC chargers were 50kw with output voltages 200-500V (datasheet). The new ones can support either 62.5KW as a standalone or 125kw if they are paired. I checked their datasheet and they support output voltages 200V-1000V.
So besides EA, the other major non-Tesla charging network in the US, is also moving to 800V chargers.
 
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Jhenson29

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My only concern was sometimes the option may be counterproductive. For example, the optional 19.2kw ac charging option prevented MY 20 and MY21 cars from having the plug and charge option,(it is fixed for MY 22).
Standard equipment could be F-ed up as well or instead. No way to know ahead of time.

Best not to worry about it. Just spec it the way you want.
 

TayTaySD

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Gentlemen, the Taycan handles 110V, 220V, 800V as we all know. There is no reason it won't handle]
400V with its current HW and SW, without any special add on.
 

daveo4EV

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Gentlemen, the Taycan handles 110V, 220V, 800V as we all know. There is no reason it won't handle]
400V with its current HW and SW, without any special add on.
it's not quite that easy

110v AC is most likely limited to 48 amp
220v AC is limited to 48 amp (11 kw) unless you option the 22 kW/19.2 kW option
400v FastDC charging is limited to 50 kW unless you option the $460 400V/150kW charger
800v FastDC charging is limited to 270 kW

what is being discussed here is the 50 kW vs. 150 kW limiation when charging at 400V DC…

Tesla Superchargers are 400V FastDC chargers with following limits when operating at max capacity

Urban Superchargers are 72 kW per stall
V2 Superchargers are 150 kW per stall
v3 Superchargers are 250 kW per stall

so a Taycan with _NO_ options would be limtied to 50 kW maximum charge rate at each of the 3 types of superchargers - greatly increasing the amount of time to reach 80/90% SOC

we are discussing _IF_ you have the 400V/150 kW whether or not you will be able to achieve greater than a 50 kW charging rate...and if the Taycan has the 150 kW option - will the Tesla adapter support more than 50 kW?

the difference would be a 30-40 min charging stop vs. a 70-80 min charging stop for 150 kW vs. 50 kW charging.

so while the Taycan "can handle" it - there are difference charging rates and the amount of time waiting for the vehicle to finish charging can vary greatly based on equipment.

so there is in fact a reason to consider special add ons and in North America Tesla Superchargers have the wrong shaped plug - not to mention that the vehicle does not "speak" supercharger control protocol - so either Tesla will need to physically modify Superchargers to have the right CCS plug - or an adapter will have to be provided - Elon's tweet indicates they are considering adapters as the way to go...

so in fact @TayTaySD your statement is mostly false- there is a lot to consider with the Taycan - it's not just fine "as is" - and there are lots of questions we can not yet answer.
 
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Tay Tay

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so in fact @Tay Tay your statement is mostly false- there is a lot to consider with the Taycan - it's not just fine "as is" - and there are lots of questions we can not yet answer.
You quoted @TayTaySD not me. I'm the original crossover singing sensation.
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