A comedy and a tragedy - I find this amusing but ultimately disappointing

[daveo4EV]

I have a story from today

I was at my local Porsche dealer today taking care of some non-Taycan related business and the service manger saw me and came over for some advice from me.

You see dealerships do not exist in a vacuum - the Porsche dealership may sell Porsche's but their bread and butter is also their trade ins. And with EV ownership rising the number of EV's showing up in the trade-in market is also rising. Now dealership need all their cars to be ready to drive - so as more EV's show up on dealer lots the service guys are expected to keep the vehicle's ready for sale and test drive…

and keeping EV's ready for sale means being able to charge them at the dealership…see where I'm going with this?

guess what brand of EVSE they've been installing for the past 2 years at a Porsche dealers…

story continues…

now over the past 2 1/2 years my local dealership has an ever increasing infrastructure of EVSE's for dealership use (service bay, show room, parking lot) mostly used for service and sales purposed (not customer vehicle charging)_Being a porsche dealer they've been building out a nice collection of PMC+/PMCC and Porsche Wall Chargers…

so the service manager comes over to me and asks:

"Hey are there any settings or tricks for getting the porsche chargers to charger other non-Porsche vehicles? we're having trouble keeping the trade-in's ready to go and it's a real problem for us not to be able to charge them here at the dealership."

I told him - "No" and that really honestly Porsche needs to "fix" the PMC+/PMCC/Porsche Wall charger because there is no reason for it to refuse to charge non-Porsche vehicle's reliably. But until they do he's going to have to tell dealership management that they will need to install some non-Porsche EVSE's to service their trade in EV's

1. he didn't like that answer - I referred him to my letter of 6-8 months ago about the PMCC not working with my son's Tesla Model Y
2. I recommended they consider the $550 Tesla Wall J-1772 Wall charger while they waited for Porsche to get a fix for their EVSE's
   1. he was amazed at the price vs. Porsche's
   2. he felt a Tesla Wall charger would not be well received by the Porsche dealership management and staff and PCNA
3. I provided him with other alternatives
4. he was frustrated to realize their EVSE investment isn't going to work for the entire business - and really doesn't want to have to purchase and install other EVSE's
5. he was very mindful of the "image" problem that they would have non-Porsche EVSE's and some customer's might notice and ask why…
6. I saw understanding dawn to him slowly about how embarrassing this situation really is and that Porsche really should fix their product…

however I left him with clear customer feedback that this is real issue, and Porsche can't really bury it's head in the sand here - and say these chargers are for Porsche EV's only - it's just not practical for their customers _OR_ their dealership.

He left with a greater appreciation for the situation and told me he was going to setup a specific call to discuss the issues with PCNA and have a more earnest conversation with them about the issue now that it clearly impacts their dealership operationally…he has come to a deep understanding of the issue now that he's been dealing with it via more EV trade-ins…and they have no way to charge them with out sending employee's w/the cars offsite to fast chargers - which puts miles on the cars and employee time away from the shop.

I have very little faith this will change anything quickly - but I find it funny/tragic that despite Porsche's best efforts even they can't live in a vacuum on this issue and ultimately it's simply not practical for their EVSE's to be unsupported with other non-Porsche EV's - and now even their service personnel are starting to understand that - well at least one of them is…

just thought I'd share.

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[ciaranob]

I have a story from today

I was at my local Porsche dealer today taking care of some non-Taycan related business and the service manger saw me and came over for some advice from me.

You see dealerships do not exist in a vacuum - the Porsche dealership may sell Porsche's but their bread and butter is also their trade ins. And with EV ownership rising the number of EV's showing up in the trade-in market is also rising. Now dealership need all their cars to be ready to drive - so as more EV's show up on dealer lots the service guys are expected to keep the vehicle's ready for sale and test drive…



guess what brand of EVSE they've been installing for the past 2 years at a Porsche dealers…

story continues…

now over the past 2 1/2 years my local dealership has an ever increasing infrastructure of EVSE's for dealership use (service bay, show room, parking lot) mostly used for service and sales purposed (not customer vehicle charging)_Being a porsche dealer they've been building out a nice collection of PMC+/PMCC and Porsche Wall Chargers…

so the service manager comes over to me and asks:

I told him - "No" and that really honestly Porsche needs to "fix" the PMC+/PMCC/Porsche Wall charger because there is no reason for it to refuse to charge non-Porsche vehicle's reliably. But until they do he's going to have to tell dealership management that they will need to install some non-Porsche EVSE's to service their trade in EV's

1. he didn't like that answer - I referred him to my letter of 6-8 months ago about the PMCC not working with my son's Tesla Model Y
2. I recommended they consider the $550 Tesla Wall J-1772 Wall charger while they waited for Porsche to get a fix for their EVSE's
   1. he was amazed at the price vs. Porsche's
   2. he felt a Tesla Wall charger would not be well received by the Porsche dealership management and staff and PCNA
3. I provided him with other alternatives
4. he was frustrated to realize their EVSE investment isn't going to work for the entire business - and really doesn't want to have to purchase and install other EVSE's
5. he was very mindful of the "image" problem that they would have non-Porsche EVSE's and some customer's might notice and ask why…
6. I saw understanding dawn to him slowly about how embarrassing this situation really is and that Porsche really should fix their product…

however I left him with clear customer feedback that this is real issue, and Porsche can't really bury it's head in the sand here - and say these chargers are for Porsche EV's only - it's just not practical for their customers _OR_ their dealership.

He left with a greater appreciation for the situation and told me he was going to setup a specific call to discuss the issues with PCNA and have a more earnest conversation with them about the issue now that it clearly impacts their dealership operationally…he has come to a deep understanding of the issue now that he's been dealing with it via more EV trade-ins…and they have no way to charge them with out sending employee's w/the cars offsite to fast chargers - which puts miles on the cars and employee time away from the shop.

I have very little faith this will change anything quickly - but I find it funny/tragic that despite Porsche's best efforts even they can't live in a vacuum on this issue and ultimately it's simply not practical for their EVSE's to be unsupported with other non-Porsche EV's - and now even their service personnel are starting to understand that - well at least one of them is…

just thought I'd share.

Tragic perhaps but in reality just plain embarrassing! The lack of foresight here is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Redhot2474]

I’d be pissed if I owned that dealership

 

[Pozuelo]

I wonder whether this is only an issue in North America. I have been able to charge several others, Mercedes and Smart, BMW, Jeep and Tesla among them. I am in Spain and I have the PMCC with HEM and latest software.

 

[whitex]

1. he felt a Tesla Wall charger would not be well received by the Porsche dealership management and staff and PCNA

Perhaps that would make management and staff at PCNA take notice?
Alternatively, did you tell him he could just make custom faceplates which say Porsche on them? As you of course know, the faceplates are a separate part. Perhaps some entrepreneurial dealer gets a Porsche faceplate for Tesla WC designed and sells them to all other dealers. Or maybe design a front plate such that it would fit inside the Porsche wall box?

he was very mindful of the "image" problem that they would have non-Porsche EVSE's and some customer's might notice and ask why…

Wouldn't that be a good thing, even for the dealer? If I ran a Porsche dealership, I would tell customers the truth about Porsche EVSEs for the good of keeping good customer relationships. Just tell them, Porsche EVSEs only work with Porsches and since the dealership sells other EV trades therefore cannot use Porsche EVSE's. A little honesty might help with customer trust. Customers don't like being tricked into a lock-in solution.

 

[W1NGE]

I have a story from today

I was at my local Porsche dealer today taking care of some non-Taycan related business and the service manger saw me and came over for some advice from me.

You see dealerships do not exist in a vacuum - the Porsche dealership may sell Porsche's but their bread and butter is also their trade ins. And with EV ownership rising the number of EV's showing up in the trade-in market is also rising. Now dealership need all their cars to be ready to drive - so as more EV's show up on dealer lots the service guys are expected to keep the vehicle's ready for sale and test drive…

guess what brand of EVSE they've been installing for the past 2 years at a Porsche dealers…

story continues…

now over the past 2 1/2 years my local dealership has an ever increasing infrastructure of EVSE's for dealership use (service bay, show room, parking lot) mostly used for service and sales purposed (not customer vehicle charging)_Being a porsche dealer they've been building out a nice collection of PMC+/PMCC and Porsche Wall Chargers…

so the service manager comes over to me and asks:

I told him - "No" and that really honestly Porsche needs to "fix" the PMC+/PMCC/Porsche Wall charger because there is no reason for it to refuse to charge non-Porsche vehicle's reliably. But until they do he's going to have to tell dealership management that they will need to install some non-Porsche EVSE's to service their trade in EV's

1. he didn't like that answer - I referred him to my letter of 6-8 months ago about the PMCC not working with my son's Tesla Model Y
2. I recommended they consider the $550 Tesla Wall J-1772 Wall charger while they waited for Porsche to get a fix for their EVSE's
   1. he was amazed at the price vs. Porsche's
   2. he felt a Tesla Wall charger would not be well received by the Porsche dealership management and staff and PCNA
3. I provided him with other alternatives
4. he was frustrated to realize their EVSE investment isn't going to work for the entire business - and really doesn't want to have to purchase and install other EVSE's
5. he was very mindful of the "image" problem that they would have non-Porsche EVSE's and some customer's might notice and ask why…
6. I saw understanding dawn to him slowly about how embarrassing this situation really is and that Porsche really should fix their product…

however I left him with clear customer feedback that this is real issue, and Porsche can't really bury it's head in the sand here - and say these chargers are for Porsche EV's only - it's just not practical for their customers _OR_ their dealership.

He left with a greater appreciation for the situation and told me he was going to setup a specific call to discuss the issues with PCNA and have a more earnest conversation with them about the issue now that it clearly impacts their dealership operationally…he has come to a deep understanding of the issue now that he's been dealing with it via more EV trade-ins…and they have no way to charge them with out sending employee's w/the cars offsite to fast chargers - which puts miles on the cars and employee time away from the shop.

I have very little faith this will change anything quickly - but I find it funny/tragic that despite Porsche's best efforts even they can't live in a vacuum on this issue and ultimately it's simply not practical for their EVSE's to be unsupported with other non-Porsche EV's - and now even their service personnel are starting to understand that - well at least one of them is…

just thought I'd share.

Porsche dealerships in UK have made similar investment in all flavours of Porsche EVSEs but typically don't resell non-Porsche brands from the dealership and pass non-Porsche trade-ins to either car markets or to other outlets within other non-Porsche owned franchises.

I guess you could say they 'thought about' the possible consequence (but I very much doubt it)!

Must admit I'm curious to try a non-Porsche EV on my PMCC as there should be no reason on this earth that it is 'tied' to Porsche but clearly there is some form of electronic barrier in place. Can't believe that this isn't solvable with an OTA update for the PMCC (for example) if there was a willingness to do it. I would have tried by now but the only other EV where I live is my neighbour's CT4S.

 

[daveo4EV]

Porsche dealerships in UK have made similar investment in all flavours of Porsche EVSEs but typically don't resell non-Porsche brands from the dealership and pass non-Porsche trade-ins to either car markets or to other outlets within other non-Porsche owned franchises.

I guess you could say they 'thought about' the possible consequence (but I very much doubt it)!

Must admit I'm curious to try a non-Porsche EV on my PMCC as there should be no reason on this earth that it is 'tied' to Porsche but clearly there is some form of electronic barrier in place. Can't believe that this isn't solvable with an OTA update for the PMCC (for example) if there was a willingness to do it. I would have tried by now but the only other EV where I live is my neighbour's CT4S.

I do not believe this "incompatibility" exists for the european versions of PMC+/PMCC.

I believe the current incompatibility is due to poor implementation of the SAE J-1772 protocol and the electrical weaknesses present in the North American variation of the PMC+/PMCC

For example: my PMCC could for instance start a charging session with my son's 2022 Model Y - but good luck as to if it would finish with out the PMCC tripping it's internal circuit breaker and require a physical reset.

It do not think Porsche is "blocking" other EV's - to date they just do not seem to care or be concerned that it seems to not work reliably with non-Porsche SAE J-1772 vehicles.

I also agree it could be fixed via an OTA update if they cared to pursue a resolution.

this thread - starting from post #81 - documents Porsche North America's official response to the Porsche Wall Charger's compatibility with non-Porsche EV's…

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...connect-unbox-install.7541/page-6#post-206698

this issue can be resolved but we now have two separate issues going forward with Porsche EVSE's

1. debilitating hardware design short falls for 9.6 kW operation for the PMC+/PMCC (but not the PWCC a North American only product to my knowledge)
2. lack of a assured operational compatibility for non-Porsche SAE J-1772 vehicles (PMC+/PMCC/PWCC)

North American dealerships are overwhelmingly installing these chargers for their own operational needs - and those needs will sometimes extend to non-Porsche EV's - they are, or will be, sadly mistaken that these capital investments will yield agnostic charging infrastructure at their dealership.

At the moment I believe this issue is only a North American issue, and the PMC+/PMCC is way more compatible outside of North America - although if there were to be problems with compatibility I do wonder if porsche would generate the same response they have already provided for North America. Which is basically - it may work, but we won't care if it doesn't work.

 

[daveo4EV]

I wonder whether this is only an issue in North America. I have been able to charge several others, Mercedes and Smart, BMW, Jeep and Tesla among them. I am in Spain and I have the PMCC with HEM and latest software.

it is very likely a North American only problem and probably indicates a weakness in their implementation of the SAE J-1772 protocol.

In the 2 years it's taken for me to develop my distaste for all things Porsche EVSE related - it has consistently been proven that the non-North American versions of the PMC+/PMCC are far stronger products and an excellent choice - the only downsides are: size, weight, cost - but functionality appears rock solid outside North America.

 

[KensingtonPark]

Because I had an EV before my Taycan, I have never had occasion to use my Porsche EVSE, and now I suppose I'm happy I haven't. Very disappointing indeed.

 

[whitex]

@daveo4EV , have you ever tried this?
PMCC->Tesla J1772 adapter-> TeslaTap -> Tesla J1772 adapter -> Tesla

Leave if for a couple of minutes before plugging in the Tesla. The above should trick PMCC into thinking there is a car connected, perhaps it would timeout whatever BS it's trying to do and actually allow charging a Tesla? Alternatively,

PMCC->Tesla J1772 adapter -> TeslaTap -> Non-Porsche EV

 

[whitex]

it is very likely a North American only problem and probably indicates a weakness in their implementation of the SAE J-1772 protocol.

Which is shocking considering the SAE J-1772 is brain-dead-simple. Mybe we should be worried about the Taycan J1772 implementation, since it works with a broken PMCC J-1772 implementation, so how long before it stops working with EVSE's which actually follow the spec?

 

[daveo4EV]

Which is shocking considering the SAE J-1772 is brain-dead-simple. Mybe we should be worried about the Taycan J1772 implementation, since it works with a broken PMCC J-1772 implementation, so how long before it stops working with EVSE's which actually follow the spec?

Porsche chargers talking to Porsche vehicles - favor an ISO protocol - which is how they get status, VIN ID, battery percentage and other meta data not present in the SAE J-1772 protocol standard.

so when you plug a PMC+/PMCC into a Porsche vehicle it's not talking J-1772 - it's talk an ISO standard that is "more robust".

this is why I don't think the Porsche PMC+/PMCC get a lot of coverage of their J-1722 implementation - it's both not European, and it would require quite a bit of testing with non-Porsche (VW/Audi) vehicles.

I have zero doubt it can be fixed - it can be fixed in software no question

I have zero faith porsche wishes to do so or will pursue it.

 

[whitex]

Porsche chargers talking to Porsche vehicles - favor an ISO protocol - which is how they get status, VIN ID, battery percentage and other meta data not present in the SAE J-1772 protocol standard.

Including early non plug-and-charge Taycans which were missing the ISO15118? Or has Porsche dropped PMCC compatibility with older Taycans by now? If they still work, what protocol do they use?

 

[daveo4EV]

Including early non plug-and-charge Taycans which were missing the ISO15118? Or has Porsche dropped PMCC compatibility with older Taycans by now? If they still work, what protocol do they use?

I think in this case it's the lack of charging hardware support on the Taycan side - it doesn't report that - I'm speculating that porsche is still using the ISO protocol but tolerating the lack of meta data from the 2020 Taycan (they certainly do from the Cayenne and Porsche Hybrids) - the Audi version which I doubt has different software also supports the ISO standard, but the Audi eTron SUV doesn't not report VIN/battery% and I have no informatoin on the AudiGT

basically I think it's a configuration matrix nightmare and there is partial implementations running around all over the place - but Porsche doesn't ahve any "native" J-1772 anywhere in their eco- system - so I'll stand by my assertion they EVSE gets very little J-1772 compatibility air-cover

their vehicles however do get coverage - and they have gotten better over time with various updates - cause they have to have their cars be able to charge

there is no equivalent mandate that their EVSE's work with non-Porsche vehicles - although there should be - this article being just one example.

I think if you showed Porsche a J-1772 charger taht the Taycan didn't work with - they've fix it

but if you show them (which I have) a J-1772 vehicle that doesn't work with their EVSE - they simply don't care.

 

[Scandinavian]

I wonder whether this is only an issue in North America. I have been able to charge several others, Mercedes and Smart, BMW, Jeep and Tesla among them. I am in Spain and I have the PMCC with HEM and latest software.

I have also very successfully charged a number of Tesla, Zoe, BMW and Mini on my PMCC. And with the Zoe I think I got up to 32 amp without any issues or overheating. Most likely a SW issue with different standards for communication.

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