Are we helping in the fight against climate change or just indulging our love of toys (er technology)?

[TDinDC]

Interesting article here: https://apple.news/AEJNZII-9Rampp5YCsoYn5g

When my twin boys attended the British School of Washington, they were taught that ICE cars were bad and electric cars were good. They decided that they were against my 911 and in favor of my Tesla. I tried to explain that this was a myth, and that those who were serious would focus on efficiency and reducing all energy consumption (e.g., reducing consumption of all types by walking and, when that’s not possible, focusing on weight and sources of energy for transport). I love EVs, but I’m not not at all convinced that they are the solution. I would like to see vehicles that are very efficient and light, and that were really powered by renewable sources that do not create waste through creation and consumption. But, of course, like nearly all of us, I’m a hypocrite as I love my toys just like everyone else. Any thoughts on how we can convince Porsche and other houses to give us both fun vehicles that are efficient and sustainable so that we are can really be part of the solution instead of just marginally part of the solution?

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[f1eng]

True we need complete lifetime low wastage and even IC engined cars are getting much better at using recyclable materials in their build.
I was disappointed to see this this morning, ie climate change deniers and sceptical scientists are rare but are PR company funded by the oil industry which pays them to write articles and do speeches thereby skewing the general public's information stream
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-62225696

 

[TDinDC]

True we need complete lifetime low wastage and even IC engined cars are getting much better at using recyclable materials in their build.
I was disappointed to see this this morning, ie climate change deniers and sceptical scientists are rare but are PR company funded by the oil industry which pays them to write articles and do speeches thereby skewing the general public's information stream
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-62225696

Absolutely. And the irony is that, despite one’s political leanings, efficiency and good design should be our collective goals (and more fun in any event).

 

[f1eng]

Absolutely. And the irony is that, despite one’s political leanings, efficiency and good design should be our collective goals (and more fun in any event).

Definitely, efficiency is always an important aim. I hate waste.

 

[scav]

At the end of the day it’s all of your actions that adds up, and you can easily have a bigger footprint owning a Tesla than a 911 if you live like there is no tomorrow in every other regard.

Personally I teach my kids to not consume mindlessly and to take care of what they own. We also don’t need to travel across the world every year, instead opting to use the EV to travel locally a couple of times a year (as Norwegians we obviously have a cabin in the mountains).

As with all things I believe in balance and moderation.

 

[AndiL]

Energy can be reproduced via solar and wind, oil based fuel can‘t. Hydrogen fuel-cells needs 4 times the energy and E-Fuel ~6 times the energy.
Electric vehicles have an efficiency of >90%, ICE of up to 40% at an optimal RPM only.
Batteries can be re-used in a 2nd life as stationary batteries, gasoline engines can‘t, fuel-cells can‘t. Gasoline and hydrogen tanks can‘t.
Batteries can be recycled already by ~90% after 2nd use, gasoline engines & fuel- cells can‘t. Gasoline and hydrogen tanks can‘t.

So if you are talking about efficiency, there is nothing out there that beats BEV Right now. Will it safe the world? Not if we replace all ICE cars with BEVs. Is there something better than buying BEVs? Sure, converting an ICE car or not requiring a car at all (e.g. only rent when needed, etc.)

Batteries will get lighter over time, energy density already about doubled in the last 10 years and there will be more to come. This is not the end of the development. And efficiency in BEVs will also increase, just take a look at the Mercedes project car with <10kWh / 100km.

Will this all save the planet? No. But it is already much better than what we had so far in my opinion.

 

[JimBob]

It's less about the EV and more about how electricity is generated in your area to fuel the EV. If from water, solar, wind, nuclear then you are not adding additional carbon dioxide. If from carbon based fuels you are still part of the problem.

 

[CarbonTax]

Kudos for this nearly sustainable thread!

Expecting my toy next month, drive < 5000 miles/year, solar array install next year, been vegetarian for health, the welfare of animals and the planet for 15 years now - consume less, don't buy too much plastic, kids < 3

Would gladly fund and utilize Swiss-style rail and trams, although that's a pipe dream on this side of the pond

PS: typing this with our nat gas generator humming in the background, another extremely intense rain and wind storm passed thru 3 hours ago

 

[f1eng]

oil based fuel can‘t

There is a process to synthesise aviation fuel very like that refined from oil from CO2 extracted from the air and using solar power to power the process.

I don’t know much about it but it is being developed from an academic’s idea to a process to create R&D quantities of the fuel and studies to go into volume production by a couple of ex-employees of mine.

The R&D quantities have powered an aircraft so far but it is still extremely expensive to make.

 

[f1eng]

It's less about the EV and more about how electricity is generated in your area to fuel the EV. If from water, solar, wind, nuclear then you are not adding additional carbon dioxide. If from carbon based fuels you are still part of the problem.

This is true but only the most backward countries are still using mainly carbon fuels to generate electricity and EVs still remove the pollution from city centres and dump it out of power station chimneys instead, bad but not as bad.

 

[gnop1950]

Interesting article here: https://apple.news/AEJNZII-9Rampp5YCsoYn5g
...

As @AndiL mentioned, you can generate electricity from renewable sources, recycle batteries, and battery technology is bound to continue to improve. Heck, I have solar panels and generate more than enough electricity to charge my car and I do over 90% of my charging at home.

The opinion piece in the WSJ is a bit suspect to me since it starts by claiming the industry is gambling on big EVs for the rich then uses the GM EV Hummer (starting price approx $85k) and the Mach-E (starting price approx $44k) as examples. The Mustang is actually lower than the average new car starting price of approximately $47k. There are also quite a few EVs out/planned that are well under the $47k average starting price for new cars. Not to mention Hybrids like the plug-in Toyota Prius hybrid that starts around $28k.

EVs aren't a perfect solution, at least in my opinion, they are a good start along with hybrids.

 

[nickmdp]

Like most things in life, just about everyone is in a gray area in the middle. I could certainly downsize my standard of living and have a positive impact, but I'll also say that many of the ways that I consume goods/services simply don't have strong eco-friendly options available.

For example, if I had the option to pay more for my electric utility bill to solely run on renewables, I would. Yes, I could install solar and batteries, but that also becomes a maintenance item for myself to manage and keep track of. I also order things online like damn near everyone, and have seen some truly amazing cardboard/paper only packaging designs that are wonderful in reducing plastic, and others that just feel like they shipped me 1 lb of plastic for something that would fit in an envelope.

Things are getting better, and I'm happy about it, but I'll worry more about the wasteful industry practices far before I worry about driving my EV to work rather than riding a bike.

 

[JimBob]

This is true but only the most backward countries are still using mainly carbon fuels to generate electricity and EVs still remove the pollution from city centres and dump it out of power station chimneys instead, bad but not as bad.

This leaves the impression that wealthy countries aren't the problem. But as their electricity demands are so much larger than poor countries, their carbon contribution will be much higher.

Here are just a few numbers from the internet for electricity production from wealthy countries
UK 43% mostly natural gas
Germany 36% mostly coal and natural gas
US 60% mostly natural gas and coal
Japan 70% mostly natural gas and coal
France 8.6% fossil and 17.8% renewable
Canada 18% fossil fuel
China 58% mostly coal and natural gas

And yes, EV's are great for removing smog from city centers.

Oh forgot Australia. 91% mostly coal and natural gas. But why am I not surprised. Home of Rupert Murdoch the creator of fake news.

 

[TDinDC]

These are all great points. It’s just disappointing that on key issues we all as a society tend to ignore key facts or simplify them to the point of ridiculousness (e.g., EV always good).

There are still places where coal is used to generate electricity, which seems absurd to me.

I love EVs. I actually cancelled an order for a Ferrari before I decided to get my Taycan simply because I could not get comfortable with going back to ICE after 7-8 years of driving an EV (I average about 4,500 miles per year) despite my deep attraction to that delicious sound . . . But I also can’t stand that we, by and large, think that buying an EV is the beginning and end of the story.

The way the electricity is generated is critical. The efficiency with which it is transmitted and stored is critical.

The weight of all vehicles is nearly criminal. I would like to see big gains in battery technology so that we could reduce weight of vehicles. How about exoskeletons that increase crush zones while reducing weight? The lighter the car, the easier it is to achieve higher performance and efficiency. Materials also matter. It’s too bad that we keep making ourselves more dependent upon rare materials.

This all may sound like pessimism, but it’s actually not. The engineer in me wonders why we don’t do a better job of focusing the enormous talent we have around the world on the pressing tasks at hand (e.g., like we did to finalize vaccines for COVID) and to educate the public rather than talking about issues in a way that merely permits us to generate short term wealth at the expense of our children by permitting the wealthier to feel better about continuing to do what we always do as if we are saving the planet. We could do better, and we need to do so quickly.

 

[AndiL]

Generating electricity with goal, oil (like in hawai) or natural gas is bad. Agreed. But there is something that can be done about that. On an ICE car you can‘t do anything that comes even close. Is it optimal yet? Of course not, but there is a clear path on how to get there.

The way electricity is transmitted is critical? Surely there is potential to improve, but why didn‘t we ask that for gasoline or other energy sources? I don‘t see why this is critical right now. Build up renewable energy sources locally, and the path is clear.

Use smaller batteries in cars, and you get less weight. If you need 400km of range rarely, don‘t get a car with a huge battery. Will batteries with the same range get lighter? Sure, as I already mentioned. Also, get smaller vehicles. SUVs (especially the ones in the US) are not useful for most. They are nice and comfortable, but only for the ones inside the vehicle. (I lived in the US)

Where are we making ourselves more dependent on rare materials? Which ones do you mean? Are they really rare or just called that way?

I get the impression you see this way too pessimistic. The communication of required tasks and critical issues is way different in the US than e.g. in Europe. But the ones with the big profits (mostly oil and coal related) have too much influence.

I am not going back to ICE, I plan to keep my cars for as long as possible and extended my solar to generated about the amount of electricity I use all year, including the cars.

EVs are not THE solution, but part of a solution. Are they and their production perfect yet? No. But wwwaaaaayyyyyyy better than anything we already had and with a real potential to get even better. And EVs have a lot of potential to help in more areas, e.g. stabilizing the grid, reducing energy costs, and more. This is being worked on right now.

There is so much to be improved, everywhere, but you gotta start somewhere.

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