Pjjameso

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Taking first distance trip with wife and trying to reduce charging stops. If I start at 100% on the turbo with 21" wheels can i make it 216 miles doing 78 -80 mph? What is a reasonable range to expect freeway cruising? Will be heading south on i81 from NVA.
 

tnikolov

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You'll get there on a single charge. Just charge to 100% beforehand and drive in range mode. It will automatically limit the max mph should you be running out of juice.

I'd always recommend a 15 minute stopover to a fast charger though, makes it faster to reach 100% with slow destination charging too :)
 

daveo4EV

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long distance travel with an EV is different that an ICE - with the main characteristics being;

speed is the enemy

as speed increases
aerodynamic drag increases - dramatically

until about 40-50 mph all the energy expended on moving the car is over coming mechanic friction and weight - with the amount of energy required to over come aerodynamics being “insignficant” at lower speeds…

however as one gets above 50 mph the portion of power being expended to overcome aerodynmic drag becomes signficant and dominant and overwhelms the basic cost of moving the car

as speed increases the power required to offset the aerodynamic drag has a velocity^2 (squared) component and it gets really expensive really really quickly…

if it costs 10 mythical units of power to to from 50-60 mph, it might cost:

20 incremental units to go from 60-70
40 incremental units to go from 70-80

the chart below is 100% fabricated and does not represent any factual values for _ANY_ vehicle I'm aware of - but it is conceptually accurate as a mental model of how as speed increases the contribution of aero-dynamic loads becomes greater than the linear cost to "just move the car" from a pure mechanical physics point of view (rolling resistance/friction/weight which are constant and linear) - again this is a "conceptual" model to illustrate how when one increases speed the aero component becomes greater than the technical component in a non-linear increasing fashion…

Screen Shot 2020-06-20 at 2.24.51 PM.png

please don't quibble with the actual numbers - they are meaning less - but conceptually accurate in terms of aero dominating cost in a non-linear/increasing fashion…it's a demonstration as an example - and not entirely inaccurate for the theory and illustrative that aero does dominate costs as speed increases - I'll leave it to mechanical/aero engineers to provide a real world model, but will assert the basic change may differ in scale/ratio but not in concept.

you'll note on the chart that aerodynamic drag in this model does not play a significant role until around 50 mph - but from that point forward it starts to dominate incremental cost as speed increases…the chart/model I fabricated was "hand tuned" to achieve this inflection point - but that is representative of real world - where in fact between 40 & 50 mph is where aero starts to appear in cost equations as a meaningingful factor, and by 60-65 mph is a majority factor in cost to move the vehicle…

even though each change in speed only 10 mph (linear) the cost is non-linear - each mph-unit added costs more than the previous mph in incremental costs…

while the units of power above are "made" up the scale/change is not - each mph costs more than the previous mph after 50 mph - and you stack all these on top of one another and pretty soon your Taycan can only drive like 70 miles at say 100 mph…

this gets really really expensive power wise very very quickly - and is also why reducing speed is so effective - you're gaining more range which each mph slower you are going, than losing in terms of speed…

an EV that say can go 300 miles on a full charge at 50 mph, can only go 180 miles at say 70 mph, or maybe only 140 miles at 80 mph…

also there is this strange trade off between faster travel from point a to point b - but because you used more power you’ll have a longer charging stop

for example there is a stretch of I-5 south in California - between two fast charging stops - I-5 is posted speed limit 70 mph, so average speeds are slightly higher - now it is 116 miles between these two superchargers (harris ranch to tejon ranch)

@70 mph that is 99 minutes travel time
@75 mph that is 93 minutes travel time
@80 mph 87 minutes
@85 mph 82 minutes

now the car can easily do a 116 mile run at 85 mph - but if you leave harrish ranch with 85% battery you arrive at Tejon ranch with 12% battery (plenty of buffer) and you’re therefore in for a nice solid 25 min charger stop to get back to 85%

making the total travel time 82 minutes + 25 minutes = 107 minutes

however if you shave 10 mph off your speed and take 93 minutes - you’ll arrive at Tejon ranch with just over 34% battery and require only an 15 minute stop to get back to 85% battery

making the total travel time 93 minutes + 15 = 108 minutes

so for both speeds the total travel time is about the same because while to travel between fast chargers is faster the increased energy consumption causes you to spend longer at a fast charger to recover the increased energy consumption…

but more importantly - the reduced consumption lets you go sooooooo much further - at the slower speeds you can skip the stop altogether at Tejon ranch and push the car further south to stop at the Castaic fast charger - where at 75 & 80 mph you simply can’t push the car that far and that fast.

if you want to reduce charging stops - reduce the speed and you’ll be amazed, amazed I tell you, how far the car can go on a single charge - and because of the relationship between speed, consumption, and charge rate you’ll be very very hard pressed to reduce overall travel time given the longer stops at the fast chargers.

having driven over 300,000 miles with EV’s the actual travel time differences by driving 5-7 mph slower are inconsequentical, but the time saved due to reducing time at fast chargers more than makes up for the slower speeds - and in some cases changes a 3 fast charger segment into a 2 fast charger segement by cutting out a full charging stop you can save 20-30 minutes…

at speeds of 65 mph or less the Taycan is easily a 270 mile vehicle, at speeds of less than 58 mph I wouldn’t be surprised at easy 330 miles of range - once you start pushing 70 or greater in _ANY_ EV the range starts to drop quite quickly due to the dramatic increase aero-dynamic drag…

how do I maximize range at 75 mph? easy don’t drive 75 mph - drive 65 mph and you’ll get more than 20% better range…

note this all also true for ICE cars - but given that they are only 20% efficient with fuel (you’re wasting most of it on waste heat anyways) and “fixed” refueling time of 7 minutes or less - the increased consumption is not offset by increased fueling time - there by allowing you to reduce overall travel time by driving faster at the consequence of increased fuel consumption.

at 65 mph I’d say the Taycan is easily 216 miles, however I”m not so sure at 75 mph or greater - also you have to plan your charging stops - as the distance you think you’re driving may be difference that where the fast charging stops are…EV road tripping requires a little planning up front, and I highly recomend using plug-share to evaluate the reliability of fast charging options along your route.

now in ideal circumstances the Taycan can go from 5% to 80% battery in a 22 minute fast charging stop (EA 350 kW charger)

but it can go from 30%-80% in about 12 minutes at the same charging stop - saving 10 minutes

that charge savings will be magnified at the more common 150 kW chargers and dramatically magnified if you’re stuck using a 50 kW fast charger…

in racing weight is the enemy - I understood this, but until I actually raced, I didn’t really understand it - shaving weight has sooooo many benefits that magnify one another it’s just hard to comprehend until you experience it for yourself - it’s just plain simple that weight shaving is the best way to improve performance of any car, but in racing more so.

for road trips with an EV - there is a virtuous cycle with speed shaving - the dramatic range increase for even a 2-5 mph adjustment in speed is just simply huge due to the reduced aerodynamic loads…

at 68 mph on innodrive cruise control you will have _ZERO_ range anxiety and when it does come time to stop at a fast charger the charging time savings will be impressive, even more impressive is driving 64 mph might allow you to skip the fast charging stop all together and simply charge overnight at your destination…at a minimum it will change a 2 fast charging stop trip into a 1 fast charging stop trip…

range and speed are not each other’s friend when you’re traveling with a budget of less than 3 gallons worth of kWh’s (about 90 kWh).
 
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PanameraFrank

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One of the best ways to learn to love an EV is to slow down on the highway. Coming from driving sports cars very fast on the highway (the faster to get to the destination the better!) I was shocked how much I enjoyed slowing down and just taking my time in my iPace.

It has so many benefits, honestly. It will alleviate some range anxiety, sure, but it also delivers such a peaceful, comfortable experience. Stick the cruise control at 65 or 70 and just chill in the serenity of a luxury EV. Then when you turn off the highway, drive like a madman. Trust me, you'll learn to love it.

If you do this, you should easily be getting 240+ miles of range and you'll have more battery left to play with the car where it really shines.
 

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long distance travel with an EV is different that an ICE - with the main characteristics being;

speed is the enemy

as speed increases
aerodynamic drag increases - dramatically

until about 40-50 mph all the energy expended on moving the car is over coming mechanic friction and weight - with the amount of energy required to over come aerodynamics being “insignficant” at lower speeds…

however as one gets above 50 mph the portion of power being expended to overcome aerodynmic drag becomes signficant and dominant and overwhelms the basic cost of moving the car

as speed increases the power required to offset the aerodynamic drag has a velocity^2 (squared) component and it gets really expensive really really quickly…

an EV that say can go 300 miles on a full charge at 50 mph, can only go 180 miles at say 70 mph, or maybe only 140 miles at 80 mph…

also there is this strange trade off between faster travel from point a to point b - but because you used more power you’ll have a longer charging stop

for example there is a stretch of I-5 south in California - between two fast charging stops - I-5 is posted speed limit 70 mph, so average speeds are slightly higher - now it is 116 miles between these two superchargers (harris ranch to tejon ranch)

@70 mph that is 99 minutes travel time
@75 mph that is 93 minutes travel time
@80 mph 87 minutes
@85 mph 82 minutes

now the car can easily do a 116 mile run at 85 mph - but if you leave harrish ranch with 85% battery you arrive at Tejon ranch with 12% battery (plenty of buffer) and you’re therefore in for a nice solid 25 min charger stop to get back to 85%

making the total travel time 82 minutes + 25 minutes = 107 minutes

however if you shave 10 mph off your speed and take 93 minutes - you’ll arrive at Tejon ranch with just over 34% battery and require only an 15 minute stop to get back to 85% battery

making the total travel time 93 minutes + 15 = 108 minutes

so for both speeds the total travel time is about the same because while to travel between fast chargers is faster the increased energy consumption causes you to spend longer at a fast charger to recover the increased energy consumption…

but more importantly - the reduced consumption lets you go sooooooo much further - at the slower speeds you can skip the stop altogether at Tejon ranch and push the car further south to stop at the Castaic fast charger - where at 75 & 80 mph you simply can’t push the car that far and that fast.

if you want to reduce charging stops - reduce the speed and you’ll be amazed, amazed I tell you, how far the car can go on a single charge - and because of the relationship between speed, consumption, and charge rate you’ll be very very hard pressed to reduce overall travel time given the longer stops at the fast chargers.

having driven over 300,000 miles with EV’s the actual travel time differences by driving 5-7 mph slower are inconsequentical, but the time saved due to reducing time at fast chargers more than makes up for the slower speeds - and in some cases changes a 3 fast charger segment into a 2 fast charger segement by cutting out a full charging stop you can save 20-30 minutes…

at speeds of 65 mph or less the Taycan is easily a 270 mile vehicle, at speeds of less than 58 mph I wouldn’t be surprised at easy 330 miles of range - once you start pushing 70 or greater in _ANY_ EV the range starts to drop quite quickly due to the dramatic increase aero-dynamic drag…

how do I maximize range at 75 mph? easy don’t drive 75 mph - drive 65 mph and you’ll get more than 20% better range…

note this all also true for ICE cars - but given that they are only 20% efficient with fuel (you’re wasting most of it on waste heat anyways) and “fixed” refueling time of 7 minutes or less - the increased consumption is not offset by increased fueling time - there by allowing you to reduce overall travel time by driving faster at the consequence of increased fuel consumption.

at 65 mph I’d say the Taycan is easily 216 miles, however I”m not so sure at 75 mph or greater - also you have to plan your charging stops - as the distance you think you’re driving may be difference that where the fast charging stops are…EV road tripping requires a little planning up front, and I highly recomend using plug-share to evaluate the reliability of fast charging options along your route.

now in ideal circumstances the Taycan can go from 5% to 80% battery in a 22 minute fast charging stop (EA 350 kW charger)

but it can go from 30%-80% in about 12 minutes at the same charging stop - saving 10 minutes

that charge savings will be magnified at the more common 150 kW chargers and dramatically magnified if you’re stuck using a 50 kW fast charger…

in racing weight is the enemy - I understood this, but until I actually raced, I didn’t really understand it - shaving weight has sooooo many benefits that magnify one another it’s just hard to comprehend until you experience it for yourself - it’s just plain simple that weight shaving is the best way to improve performance of any car, but in racing more so.

for road trips with an EV - there is a virtuous cycle with speed shaving - the dramatic range increase for even a 2-5 mph adjustment in speed is just simply huge due to the reduced aerodynamic loads…

at 68 mph on innodrive cruise control you will have _ZERO_ range anxiety and when it does come time to stop at a fast charger the charging time savings will be impressive, even more impressive is driving 64 mph might allow you to skip the fast charging stop all together and simply charge overnight at your destination…at a minimum it will change a 2 fast charging stop trip into a 1 fast charging stop trip…

range and speed are not each other’s friend when you’re traveling with a budget of less than 3 gallons worth of kWh’s (about 90 kWh).

One of the best ways to learn to love an EV is to slow down on the highway. Coming from driving sports cars very fast on the highway (the faster to get to the destination the better!) I was shocked how much I enjoyed slowing down and just taking my time in my iPace.

It has so many benefits, honestly. It will alleviate some range anxiety, sure, but it also delivers such a peaceful, comfortable experience. Stick the cruise control at 65 or 70 and just chill in the serenity of a luxury EV. Then when you turn off the highway, drive like a madman. Trust me, you'll learn to love it.

If you do this, you should easily be getting 240+ miles of range and you'll have more battery left to play with the car where it really shines.
the one problem I have with that is learning to love to drive a Porsche at 50-60mph. Don’t tell me you bought a Porsche to drive it slowly...
 

HigherLevel

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Haha, lots of good info here. I honestly prefer driving fast and then just taking a longer break on the charging stations. It's nice to get out and stretch your legs for a while, take a mental break, etc...Might not be best for fuel economy but more enjoyable for me.
 

PanameraFrank

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the one problem I have with that is learning to love to drive a Porsche at 50-60mph. Don’t tell me you bought a Porsche to drive it slowly...
*on the highway

The idea is to drive slowly on the highway so you can drive fast on the fun roads. I don't buy a Porsche to drive fast in a straight line, I buy a Porsche to wring it through curves and twisty roads.
 

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...

EV road tripping requires a little planning up front, and I highly recomend using plug-share to evaluate the reliability of fast charging options along your route.

...
Dave,
Really great information. That should be extracted into a “Welcome to EV Driving FAQ” which we should write/assemble sometime... soon.

I just wanted to expand on a subject you touched on: “the reliability of the EV charging network”.

Our charging network is different that Tesla’s. We don’t have a Single Supplier, Single Provider network. We have a mishmash of networks, and even within the single most important network for Taycans, the ElectrifyAmerica network, they have four different suppliers of DC Fast chargers.

And we use a Porsche-written App to start charging sessions. And Porsche lags behind in features that the EA App has had for months. The EA app is a good backup, though.

But my main point is this: You cannot rely on that charger 200 miles away to be working. Yes, you can easily make it there, but what if it fails? Where is the next one? If you have 230 miles of range (in your particular driving style, weather, terrain, etc) but the next Charging Station is 50 miles further on, you are in trouble if your first choice (200 mile) station is out of order.

You’ll learn to charge more often on long road trips, to reduce risk.

If you like risk, then by all means, drive to a station 220 miles away that sits in the middle of a desert, 75 miles from anywhere else. I’ve done it. Fingers were crossed, anxiety was high.

Know where your backup stations are. Arm yourself with lots of Apps: (EA, ChargePoint, PlugShare, ChargeHub, EV Hotels, ABRP, Flo, EVgo, etc.)

Teach your navigator (spouse, child, cat, whatever) to use those Apps, and to use the car’s Nav to find other backup stations.
 

daveo4EV

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for those of you unaware @louv drove his Taycan 11,000 miles cross country in the snow between canada and the US in the winter and he’s a long time EV driver…

listen to this man and I will NEVER contradict his experience.

with a mis-mash of charging networks and reliability ranging from abysmal to mostly ok for these other charging networks - charging options/alternatives are critical for your EV road tripping pleasure…

the less reliable the network or data about the network the critical your EV road trip warrior “kit” is - since the kit is designed to give you options…

if the charging network were 100% reliable, you don’t need the kit…you need the kit because the network currently lacks reliability and coverage…

I will 100% agree with @louv - pre-trip charge location planning with plug-share is critical!
 

daveo4EV

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the one problem I have with that is learning to love to drive a Porsche at 50-60mph. Don’t tell me you bought a Porsche to drive it slowly...
I agree @tnikolov - but sometimes you don’t have a choice, and it’s been my experience that those new to the EV world simply don’t understand how dramatic the relationship between speed and range is…

when it doesn’t matter drive the Taycan as fast as you‘d like and it’s got plenty of juice for 98% of anything you’ll ever ask it to do…and yes saving 7 minutes on a 25 minute charging stop is inconsequential…

but when you really really really have to make it that one charger between Reno & Salt Lake City on 80 east you can greatly reduce your anexity and range by simply lowering your speed…

again to the newlly initiated EV owners among us

you will be amazed at how much further you can drive at 65 mph vs. 74 mph…it’s simply game changing when range matters…

for the elite, pro, advanced EV road warrior, even more extreme speed reductions can cut ENTIRE charging stops out of the picture for even more dramatic range improvements…

when it doesn’t matter drive the Taycan as fast as you wish for your personal tastes…

but when range matters - speed is the MAIN tool at your disposal - and even modest reductions can yield dramatic results.

until you’ve done it- you simply won’t understand how dramatic speed management can be for range management in an EV.
 
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daveo4EV

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another technique I use when range matters and there is only one or two choices for charging along my route is:

start slow - and increase speed as you get closer…

for example if I was doing Reno to Salt Lake city via 80…there are only a couple of strategic fast chargers on that route, and there are not _ANY_ alternatives (even L1/L2 in between)…

so for a run like that I might start out at say 60 mph - drive for a solid hour at 60 - evaluate my consumption, and if I’m ahead of the consumption curve (I should be after an hour @ 60 mph) I grant myself more speed for the remaining segment…

rinse, lather, repeat…as you get close to the target with plenty of charge in the battery - speed will be less and less of a factor

hypothetically for example certain EV drivers that post often on this forum may have some fun covering the last 10 miles to a fast charger at well over 90 mph since they have getting to the charger “in the bag”…:rock:

but I wouldn’t know who they are or if they have ever actually done that.
 

daveo4EV

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speed management and consumption awareness is also critical when there is a headwind - and because of the velocity squared contribution of aerodynamic drag headwinds + EV driving + speed = very very very expensive…

if you are driving 70 mph into a 10 mph head wind- you have the aero-dynamic drag of 80 mph - and your range is now in the toiliet!!!

because of the velocity squared aspect of drag and speed - a 10 mph increase in drag is 100 times affect in the efficiency equation...

with a headwind it’s even more important to understand how reducing one’s speed can increase range

example: the run north on I-5 in california is well with in the range of any 300 mile EV - and Ive done it multiple times - I in fact had done it so many times that I got to the point where I could drive from Tejon Ranch to Gilroy on a single charge -and entirely skip the Harris Ranch fast charging stop - I’d arrive at Gilroy with 5% or less battery, but I’d arrive…:clap:

top off at Tejon ranch, set the cruise control to 64 mph - and arrive in Gilroy with 5% or less battery -and wave to Harris Ranch as you sped by…skipping the stop entirely.

until the night of doom with the 10-20 mph head wind - I was driving my 64 mph as alwasy, but range was dropping like a stone…then I saw a flag on the side of the road - I was driving north and the flag was rock solid pointing south in a wind than can only be described as extreme…

I immediately reduced my speed, no affect, reduce it some more, no affect, reduce a little more phew finally starting to get consumption under control…

I limped into Harris Ranch with 2% battery - and if I had not reduced my speed I would not have made it even to Harris Ranch…

speed, aero dynamic drag, and power consumption - more speed = non-linear increase in consumption…learn it, live it, practice it for when range matters…the rest of the time enjoy the 800 horse power, 700 ft/lbs of torque at your instant disposal

but when you simply have to get the most range speed must be managed.
 

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Look up on youtube for range at various highway speeds by The Autobahn Specialist - he has both German and English versions. Sounds like 250 miles on the Turbo S at 130 km/h (80 mph). ON the 4S with 20" wheels I am getting 300 miles at 73 mph and hilly drive.

If you cave in and drive faster than 70 mph ;)don't forget to change the upper speed limit for the range mode.
 

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Look up on youtube for range at various highway speeds by The Autobahn Specialist - he has both German and English versions. Sounds like 250 miles on the Turbo S at 130 km/h (80 mph). ON the 4S with 20" wheels I am getting 300 miles at 73 mph and hilly drive.

If you cave in and drive faster than 70 mph ;)don't forget to change the upper speed limit for the range mode.
Or just punch it when you hit 70, first time I did that and it had a jolt.. fun..
 

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here is a plug-share screen shot for I-81

there is good coverage of EV chargers in this area of the country - so planning and have some backup plans appears to be very reasonable - green "pins" are L2 chargers (9.6 kW or less - the vast vast majority are likely 6 kW public chargers - 208 volts * 30 amps) - and orange chargers are DC Fast Chargers 25 kW or more…

clicking on individual "pins" will allow you to see any recent "check-ins" for charger's operational status, and it's over all "score" for reliability - 1 = very low reliability 10=near flawless reliability

Chattanooga appears a little spares so you might need to get creative if you're going to charge in that area…otherwise I'd travel around in this area worry free based on the high number of chargers indicated on the map.

Screen Shot 2020-06-20 at 2.03.19 PM.png
 

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