T-Fury

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5. Even when I arrived at an EA 350 KwH station that was working, at least half of the time it would only charge at 60-100 Kwh rates, regardless of my state of charge at arrival. This always caused the charging sessions to last longer than I had planned. The EA network has quite some ways to go to get their quality up to snuff!
I do recognize that charging rates are impacted by SOC but I’ve seen enough posts here mentioning not being able to achieve a high rate of charge on the 350 kW chargers that part of me wonders if these chargers are rate limited in some locations because of demand charges. I assume EA has to negotiate with many different power companies and some may have demand charges in place that make it too expensive to allow charging at those levels at certain times of the day. Maybe someone can speak to this.

Anyway, here’s a nice article on demand charges from The Great Plains Institute and their impact on charging:
https://energycentral.com/c/ec/anal...ectric-vehicle-fast-charging-infrastructure-0
 

porsche_coyote

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I do recognize that charging rates are impacted by SOC but I’ve seen enough posts here mentioning not being able to achieve a high rate of charge on the 350 kW chargers that part of me wonders if these chargers are rate limited in some locations because of demand charges. I assume EA has to negotiate with many different power companies and some may have demand charges in place that make it too expensive to allow charging at those levels at certain times of the day. Maybe someone can speak to this.

Anyway, here’s a nice article on demand charges from The Great Plains Institute and their impact on charging:
https://energycentral.com/c/ec/anal...ectric-vehicle-fast-charging-infrastructure-0
At least some of the EA and Porsche dealer charging sites are using batteries for 350 kW charging both because of costs of peak demand power, and because it's sometimes not possible to get enough power to a site to actually sustain that kind of load. That means some users at those sites could end up being out of luck if they come after several other people have depleted the batteries.
 

Damond

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All, Sorry this is going to be a bit long, but I have been researching this issue for the last 5 months.

Almost sounds like the contents of my article in my local PCA-Southern Arizona Region (SAR) newsletter this past April. The Title "Porsche Taycan 4S, Can I Get There From Here". The "There" was Las Vegas and the "Here" Was Tucson or Phoenix. The driving/operational conditions were starting with an 80% Charge, driving 75-85 mph on desolate Interstates & US/State highways, semi-mountainous terrain, and with AC at automatic at 72F because its 110-115F outside. I recognize not many of you have experienced these temperatures, but they are common right now in the desert Southwest of the US.

The combination of the scarcity of reliable 50kW or better charging stations along the only feasible route, and the best estimate of a 183-mile range given the conditions listed above make it impossible to get there from here.

My research and analysis of trying to make this trip in a Taycan with a 93.4kWh battery revealed to me that it could be unsafe, very uncomfortable, and certainly lacking Porsche fun factor to try this commonly made trip. The only route from my house in Tucson or even somewhere in Phoenix involves stops in Buckeye AZ (143 miles), Blythe CA (120 miles) before hitting Las Vegas (206 miles). The problem is the Blythe CA to Las Vegas 206 mile leg. Buckeye has a Electrify America (EA) 350kW charging station, but Blythe currently has only a 2 each 50kW charger station, and there are 4 each Level 2 7-9kW J-1772 chargers at a City of Needles charging location, 96 miles out of Blythe, and then it is another 108 miles through some pretty desolate desert to Las Vegas. [Source of charging station location and capacity is the PlugShare.com map]

There are several issues associated with charging Taycans (or any EV) when the temperature is 110-115F (43-46C). The Taycan Drivers Manual says the preferred charging temperature is between -4F and 86F. To make sure the Taycan vehicle isn't too hot, the Taycan battery cooling system will be working, and one has to use the pre-cooling/pre-heat function to try to keep the cabin cool. The problem is this function can only be used when the State of Charge (SOC) is 25% or better, and although it can be used while charging, both cooling systems use will extend the charging time. Besides the Blythe CA charging station is at a Hampton Inn...hopefully one can stay inside, while the possibly 90 minutes or more charging takes place.

Then if one had to stop at Needles, it could take several hours at 7 to 9kW to get enough charge to make it to Las Vegas. All in all not a comfortable or fun thing to do.The consequence of not charging in Needles with only a 183-mile range would be to be on "limp home" mode with little or no air conditioning, and this would be somewhere between Needles and Las Vegas or Boulder City. It should be noted that there would be cell service only existent around Searchlight NV (53 miles from Needles)! The Taycan Driver's Manual says that when the SOC gets below 10% it will begin to restrict the air conditioning until it finally shuts it off. And for practical purposes, one only gets a 80% SOC in Blythe and that would have to get one to Las Vegas, without the hassle of charging in Needles. In addition, if one only cooled the cabin temperature down to 86F, when leaving Blythe, one would turn on the air conditioning to MAX AC for about 10 minutes to get the cabin down to 72F...just to be comfortable! This would further reduce the range necessary to get to Las Vegas.

This brings me to my 183-mile range estimate. The best estimator I have found is a Porsche product available to most of the world except North America. It's called the Porsche.com Range Indicator/Calculator and the best one available for the desert Southwest situation is on line if you select on the Porsche.com web-site a Region such as the Middle East and a town such as Dubai (PRI-D). It allows one to estimate the range of a Taycan 4S, or Taycan Turbo or Taycan Turbo S, based on driving profile, outside temperature, air conditioning setting, size tires, and whether or not the 93.4kWh battery is installed.

As has been mentioned several times in the above, high speed driving is the nemesis of range. The PRI-D reflects that if one's driving profile is 100% Interstates and principle US/State highways (aka Motorway driven at 70-80 mph... 5 mph over speed limit), the range estimate for a Taycan 4S with a 100% starting SOC, with an outside temperature of 104F (40C), with AC on automatic @72F, 19" tires, and 93.4kWh battery is 229 miles. PRI-D estimates that if one slows down to 100% Country Roads (50-65 mph) the range under the same other conditions is 254 miles, 25 miles more. If one takes into account just the fact that one only gets recharged to an 80% SOC in Blythe, and the PRI-D doesn't take into effect the 3200 ft rise in elevation and only 1000 ft descent en route to Las Vegas, it's easy to derate this 229 miles by 20% to 183 miles. [Source: AMCI Testing Certified Results 2020 Porsche Taycan 4S..., Average Indicated Range chart for Real World City/Highway Range for the 19% decrease in range from 100% to 80%, throw in an additional 1% for terrain and other factors]

By my calculation, in order to be safe, comfortable, and have fun driving a Porsche Taycan 4S between my home in Tucson and Las Vegas, I would need a range of at least 230 miles if I wanted to drive it during the summer months here in the desert Southwest. Remember the 25% SOC needed to use pre-cool while charging. Well, that means I would have to use only a 55% SOC when driving the 120 miles from Buckeye to Blythe (80%-25%=55%). In this case, even the 183-mile range poses no problem. More accurately an 80% starting SOC "range" means that a Taycan goes from an SOC of 80% down to a 5% SOC; a expenditure of 75% charge. That's a .4% SOC per mile with a 183 mile range resulting in an estimated 48% drop in SOC in 120 miles. The 230-mile range provides approximately 25 mile "reserve" when driving from Blythe to Las Vegas; what most gas powered cars give as a warning of low fuel.

NOTE: I am not yet a Taycan owner, but have plunked down my $2,500 to be on the list to buy one. So all this analysis was done to see if I would give up my 2017 911 Cabriolet for a Taycan 4S. I often drive from Tucson to Las Vegas in the summer and have hit 117F while doing this drive. I usually drive the 408-mile route from Tucson to Phoenix to Kingman to Las Vegas. The Tucson to Buckeye to Blythe to Las Vegas is a 460 some mile route. The problem with the route through Kingman is that it has only one Level 2 J-1772 7-9kW charging station that isn't always working.

So there you have it, my five months worth of research in a nutshell.

So what are my options, if I still want to be a proud owner of a Taycan 4S?

a. Trade in my 911 for a Taycan 4S and not drive it here in the summer or perhaps never at 75-85 mph. NO WAY. Can't imagine driving here in the southwest in a Porsche being constantly passed by a something like a beat up Toyota Corolla just so I could drive the additional 50 miles at less than speed limit speeds just to limp into Las Vegas.

b. Wait until someone puts a 50kW or better charging station in Kingman,. NO. Although part of the solution, I still would have to get 230-miles range on an 80% charge since its 205 miles from an EA charging in Tempe/Phoenix to some 50kW charging station in Kingman. I have asked Electrify America (EV), EVconnect, and EVgo if they have any plans to put a 50kW charging station in Kingman several times, and have gotten no response. Not likely to get a charging station there in the next couple of years.

c. Really see if my 183-mile "guesstimated" range with a starting 80% SOC is accurate. POSSIBLY. Can a Taycan really get a 230 mile range on an 80% SOC? This is my last hope of giving me a good reason to trade in my 911 for a Taycan4S...something I have wanted to do since it came out, but can't get past the lack of range when I need it to have a better proven range.

I have contacted the three Porsche dealerships in the area: Porsche of Tucson, Porsche of Chandler[Phoenix,] and Porsche of N. Scottsdale [Phoenix], and provided results of my analysis. I proposed that they individually or collectively do a actual range road test, during the upcoming extreme heat season. This test would be on I-10 from the EA charging station at Buckeye to the EA charging station Indio CA, and back, a distance of 219 miles each way. This would be in any Taycan with a 93.4kWh battery, starting at an 80% SOC, driving at normal Porsche driving speeds (at least 5 mph over speed limit), with air conditioning at automatic and set at 72F. By driving both directions and averaging the results this would closely emulate the somewhat dangerous drive from Blythe to Las Vegas if the 183-mile range estimate were true. It leaves the 50kW charging station in Blythe as a safety point.

I have had responses from two of them and am in the process of sending my last request to the remaining dealership. At this point it doesn't sound like they are willing to do the test. I would even be willing to do the test if I could get my hands on a Taycan. I would like to do something like Matt Farah ,The Smoking Tire channel in his YouTube video who drove from Mar Vista (Venice) CA to Palm Springs CA and back on a single 100% charge in a Taycan 4S a total of 276.2 miles with 18 miles remaining.

BOTTOM LINE. As was pointed out in all the preceding posts, at this time owning an Taycan requires one to accept the fact that there may be times you can't get there from here, in the manner you would like, or maybe not at all.

Let me know what you all think about this.
 
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Miwa

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If your biggest requirement for a car is to do that leg of highway, then the Taycan might not be for you. The 206 miles is certainly doable, but you have to charge up first, and that's going to be at least an hour to get to 100% charge before doing it.

Even for drives from SF to LA or SF to Vegas, there may be plenty of chargers, but I'm still going to call up Silvercar and take a nice Q7. I'd rather skip getting rock chips and worrying about where I'm going to park when taking a road trip. And skipping the depreciation from mileage doesn't hurt either. Every time one of these range discussions come up, I have the same thought. :p My car will only ever charge at home or at work (which is about 2mi away).
 

Damond

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Miwa,
Thanks for your response. I appreciate your position.

That being said, I am a SoCal boy and have always "driven" my cars long distances, to include my 911's, Boxster, 944, 240Z, and even my 1958 Austin Healy Bug-Eye Sprite. I have driven the full length of all east-west Interstates, and what pieces are left of the Historic US66. The desert Southwest does take its toll on windshields and paint jobs. As a consequence I have covered almost the entire painted surfaces of my 911's with Xpel Ultimate. When the Xpel has taken a hit, I just the damaged piece it replaced. Thankfully, I haven't sustained dents in the metal, but the windshields have taken some fatal hits.

Different strokes for different folks.

Damond
 

daveo4EV

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@Damond for the 230 mile segment - drive a little slowe for 1/3rd of it - and then you should be able to creep up in speed, until there is some fast charging added to the segement - I think you can tease 230 miles out of a Taycan at 90% charge…and it won't be as bad as you think

in plugshare later tonight…
 

svp6

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Or just punch it when you hit 70, first time I did that and it had a jolt.. fun..
Agree about the jolt. Problem is that I cannot get myself to drive 70 when almost everyone is driving faster. I had to abandon "range" first trip and used "normal" to set speed at 73. Consumption is a tad worse that way.
 

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...starting with an 80% Charge, driving 75-85 mph on desolate ...
Who in their right mind start a long trip with 80% SOC. Anybody does that with ICE? What is the objective here?

BOTTOM LINE. As was pointed out in all the preceding posts, at this time owning an Taycan requires one to accept the fact that there may be times you can't get there from here, in the manner you would like, or maybe not at all.
Totally disagree! You can get to ANY place in the world with an EV as long as you:

1. get prepare as you need to do with an ICE
2. are brave enough and ask for a charge anywhere you can find a socket.
 

Miwa

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Who in their right mind start a long trip with 80% SOC. Anybody does that with ICE? What is the objective here?
When the long leg of the trip the last leg, not the first leg.
 

Noura

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Sad USA don’t use the metric system need to have my calculator to understand all you information but it’s very interesting post.
 

ron_b

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Agree about the jolt. Problem is that I cannot get myself to drive 70 when almost everyone is driving faster. I had to abandon "range" first trip and used "normal" to set speed at 73. Consumption is a tad worse that way.
I certainly agree that 70 miles an hour will not be my maximum range mode speed an hour after taking possession of the vehicle. :cool:

you know you can increase the maximum speed for range mode to above 80 miles per hour which is plenty for most freeway driving where you have concerns of black and white vehicles with flashy red lights.

See https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...cantly-better-range-long-post.1429/post-17830
 

phekko

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Taking first distance trip with wife and trying to reduce charging stops. If I start at 100% on the turbo with 21" wheels can i make it 216 miles doing 78 -80 mph? What is a reasonable range to expect freeway cruising? Will be heading south on i81 from NVA.
First, what kind of weather? The number one limiting factor for range that I've found has been cold and rain. Snow, even worse. In the warm, I'm pushing 400km (248 miles) on my turbo even with a bit faster speed. 80mph might be pushing it, though, but if you drop down to about 70, you should have no problems making it.
 

Damond

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Thanks to all who responded.
My apologies to Noura in Brussels for not putting things in metric as well. I will try to also include the metric equivalents in this post.

Here's my BOTTOM LINE response to the above posts:
If the Taycan 4S can get a 230-mile range off a 80% down to a 5-10% charge, when driving as I would like to drive my Porsche , and its 110-115F (43-46C) then I could accept the additional 50 miles, and 2 hour penalty over driving my 911 from Tucson to Las Vegas. I am that taken with its design, and engineering.

This is my reason for this response.
It is important to make clear that in the question Can I Get There From Here, the emphasis is on I! When I first started looking at this question seriously was when I decided that I was serious about selling/trading in my 2017 911 (991.2) Cabriolet for a Taycan 4S and plunked down the $2500. I had followed the Taycan from its beginnings as the Mission E, all the way to watching the world wide unveiling, and attending the PCA Tech Tactics-West in order to touch examine, and ask questions about the Taycan. I was and still am jazzed about the car and its technologies.

Additionally, a friend of mine with a Tesla S shared with me about his I can't get there from here adventures when driving on long distance trips up and down the west coast.

So, I established some criteria that was based on how I wanted to use a Taycan: where I wanted to drive it, and how I wanted to drive it, and what compromises I had to make over the where and how I drove my 911. That's how the trip to Las Vegas from Tucson, particularly in the extreme summer heat of 110-115F (43-46C) became the "test" case. Just driving the 250 mile round trip to Phoenix and back from Tucson was also a factor.

So I buy my Porsches to drive them like a Porsche, fast but not fast enough to get tickets. Here in the desert Southwest that means 84 mph (135 km/h) on our 75 mph (121 km/h) speed limit Interstates, 79 (127) on the 70 mph (113 km/h) speed limit multi-lane US/State Highways and 74 (119) on the 65 mph (105 km/h) freeways/beltways around Phoenix. No tickets for 9 mph (14 km/h) over the speed limit. In some cases one has to go faster just to keep up with the traffic!

Also, for those not familiar with what its like to drive the long distances between towns here in the desert Southwest, the desert doesn't provide much in the way of changing scenery except for the mountains. It is pretty monotonous at times. On some highways, like the US 95 between Blythe CA and Needles, and Needles and Boulder City/Las Vegas, it can be more than just monotonous, it can be dangerous to have any kind of breakdown. There is no cell service! It is common to drive for 50 miles (80 km) without passing by any form of civilization, much less a gas station, rest stop, or rest room. So speed is important in getting to the "there".

That's why, at least for me, it is part of the fun factor in owning and driving a Porsche here to be able to easily drive at 84 mph (135 km/h) even through the mountains. There are mountainous sections of the roadways along any of the routes from Tucson to Las Vegas that have inclines that cause many vehicles, and almost all semi-trucks to have to slow down. Particularly, when it is 110-115F (43-46C)!

Hopefully, you see why I can't really accept the slowing down to or below the speed limits on the Interstates or US/State highways when driving between Tucson and Las Vegas. Even though at this point it appears to be the only way to drive from Blythe CA to Las Vegas, given the current charging station situation. Again, this is true for me in my Porsche. As I mentioned in my original post, I can't see me being passed by a beat up Corolla while driving to Las Vegas, or anywhere for that matter unless it is doing 11+mph (18 km/h+) over the speed limit. Which happened to me in my 911. Unfortunately, the Corolla did it in front of an AZ Highway Patrol who promptly pulled it over and ticketed it :)

Now as to the charging to more than 80%. The recommendation is when not at home to only charge to 80% because it takes a lot longer to get to 100% even with a DC Fast charger (50kW or better) and it isn't particularly good for the batteries. Also, as I explained in my original post, when its 110-115F (43-46C), charging to 80% can take over 90 minutes even with a DC Fast charger. Too much cooling needs to be happening at the same time that extends the charging time. Then there is the lack of fun factor in getting "there" on a 460 mile trip if one needs to take 3-6 hours of charging time to get there.

I do understand that for some of you driving an EV may be as important as driving a Porsche EV, and you are willing to accept the operational limitations one has to deal with when driving on long distance trips. It is just not my cup of tea.

As I said at the beginning of this post, before I plunk down the $120,000 or so for the Porsche Taycan 4S I have configured, I would like to be able know that I can go where I wanted to go and how I wanted to go.

Again, thanks for the feedback and comments.

Anyone interested in doing a range road test in their Taycan here while the desert is HOT!:)
 

daveo4EV

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if YOU do not want to compromise occasionally for long trips including segments that have limited fast charging choices - there are NO EV's on the market that can reliably offer the sort of range/speed you are requesting. I'm hopeful between better charging infrastructure and EV technology improvements in the next 5 years my answer would be different.

But if that is the way you want to drive the car - that segment will be an adventure for the foreseeable future.

I'm willing to make compromised like this - because frankly I have to do things like this for less than 6 hours maybe 2 or 3 times a year…and the rest of my driving is worry free. And the advantages of an EV the rest of the year (364 days) out weigh these rare accommodations - but yes there are still places/road-segments where one has to "baby" their EV to get through a particular segment for distance driving.

I personally would not be willing to give up my EV the rest of the year because of this one segement of highway that will get better over time - but I understand that's a personal decision and not for everyone.
 



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