Does the Taycan make petrol engine supercars old-fashioned or even obsolete?

[daveo4EV]

my own conversation got me thinking…

Question: what is the savings for a 3 car model, 1 EV, 1 Hybrid, and 1 recreational vehicle - and what would be the annual savings?

Answer: 75% less gas consumed for nearly zero impact on life style or daily/road-trip usage! 75% for no change in your life or personal transportation usage or hardship…

a family who owns:

• 1 EV for commuting
• 1 hybrid for family duty
• 1 recreational vehicle

can easily achieve a 75% reduction in gasoline consumption while maintaining access to the advantages of an ICE vehicle for the few times a year you need it and it's a better solution. And this same family gets to keep their GT3 and it's glorious flat-6 and awesome soundtrack!! no impact on the family trip - cause you're going to use the hybrid!

75% less fuel a year - 1659 gallons for a 100% gas mix, 431 gallons for 3 car mix pick the best tool


the model below for your interest…

now multiply this over 50,000,000 families in the US (350,000,000 people divided by family size of 4, and then back out 25% to account for rural vs. metro), and times 20 years - and it's a substantial saving with virtual no impact on use model or convenience - and you can leave the rest of the world alone and they can keep their 100% gas mix that are in less dense areas…move 50,000,000 family to this mix and we get the following savings…

that's 1.3 TRILLION fewer gallons of gasoline consumed over 20 years and I"ll argue no one would be impacted with "hardship" because you get to keep a gas car for the family road trip and run electric the other 48 weeks of the year. And you keep your GT3!!!!

this approach saves 53 billion barrels of oil over a 20 year span - and associated emissions.

and this is the savings for only 3/4 of the families in the US - we haven't changes trucking, planes, or commercial usage with similar mixes.

 

[6offsetin]

AS toward the OPs main question.

Personally, I could never go full EV, I own(ed) at least one car from each decade from the 70s to current, I still own a few dino powered cars. I cant think of anything that sounds as good as a V10 at high revs. I cant think of anything currently EV thats as fun as a Twin turbo V8 light weight supercar around a track.

I can however, think if many...many...everyday cars that could be replaced with an BEV and i dont think we would miss anything.

Replacement as a supercar if all you want is speed, soon, im sure. If you enjoy the general nostalgia of driving and enjoy holding on to some history, probably not.

As a human, we attach certain emotional feelings to...'stuff'...and 'things'. Seeing a picture of art work, is not the same as seeing it with your own eyes, sure you can see them in high res...but the smell of old paint, and seeing the small differences in depth of paint is not something we can experience digitally.

I love the smell of an old book, gasoline, leather, old school Japanese vinyl interior trim...

Old fashioned maybe, but still always fashionable

 

[6offsetin]

Most supercars and hypercars today are all about numbers and attention. EV supercars will be able to throw down numbers that dwarf petrol supercars and will be able to offer even more exotic chassis and designs because of the powertrain configurations.

What EV's will struggle to replace is the cars that are more about feel and passion like the Porsche GT3. Having a manual transmission with a high revving flat six behind you is going to be really hard to compete with. But I believe this type of product mostly appeals to older generations, and will slowly fade away.

Petrolhead parents will keep things alive, its will likely just become niche and fringy like...stamp collecting...lol...I hope my kids adopt my love of old school cars. I sure do keep harping on about them.

 

[Kingske]

my own conversation got me thinking…

Question: what is the savings for a 3 car model, 1 EV, 1 Hybrid, and 1 recreational vehicle - and what would be the annual savings?

Answer: 75% less gas consumed for nearly zero impact on life style or daily/road-trip usage! 75% for no change in your life or personal transportation usage or hardship…

a family who owns:

• 1 EV for commuting
• 1 hybrid for family duty
• 1 recreational vehicle

can easily achieve a 75% reduction in gasoline consumption while maintaining access to the advantages of an ICE vehicle for the few times a year you need it and it's a better solution. And this same family gets to keep their GT3 and it's glorious flat-6 and awesome soundtrack!! no impact on the family trip - cause you're going to use the hybrid!

75% less fuel a year - 1659 gallons for a 100% gas mix, 431 gallons for 3 car mix pick the best tool


the model below for your interest…

now multiply this over 50,000,000 families in the US (350,000,000 people divided by family size of 4, and then back out 25% to account for rural vs. metro), and times 20 years - and it's a substantial saving with virtual no impact on use model or convenience - and you can leave the rest of the world alone and they can keep their 100% gas mix that are in less dense areas…move 50,000,000 family to this mix and we get the following savings…

that's 1.3 TRILLION fewer gallons of gasoline consumed over 20 years and I"ll argue no one would be impacted with "hardship" because you get to keep a gas car for the family road trip and run electric the other 48 weeks of the year. And you keep your GT3!!!!

this approach saves 53 billion barrels of oil over a 20 year span - and associated emissions.

and this is the savings for only 3/4 of the families in the US - we haven't changes trucking, planes, or commercial usage with similar mixes.

Minor adjustment: it is unlikely that there are 50 million families in the US who can afford a Taycan+Cayenne+GT3 fleet.

 

[Swede-ish]

Hello,

whenever I experimentally switch back from the T to my Corvette, it feels as if the Corvette has fallen out of time. I mean, the C7 is actually a quite amazing car with a great rumbling V8, but still, when coming from the electric car, it feels as if the C7 is kaputt, I find myself thinking "something must have gone out of order while the Corvette was standing here unused for a month".

Do you think this is a general trend? Do electric sports cars like the Taycan suddenly turn almost all regular sports cars into oldtimers?

Cheers,
Henrik

That is exactly my feeling when driving the R8 - it is mostly sequestered to the garage. Nothing beats the Taycan on the fun-level!

 

[daveo4EV]

@Kingske

well over time I believe we simply modify the list to:

1. Chevy Bolt
2. Hybrid SUV
3. Mazda Miata

I listed those porsche models cause this is a Porsche forum - you'll achieve similar results and the cars listed above are all already on market and affordable for most families and inline with what they are paying for other vehicles.

 

[Kingske]

@Kingske

well over time I believe we simply modify the list to:

1. Chevy Bolt
2. Hybrid SUV
3. Mazda Miata

I listed those porsche models cause this is a Porsche forum - you'll achieve similar results and the cars listed above are all already on market and affordable for most families and inline with what they are paying for other vehicles.

My remark was intended more innocently than it may have come across. Sorry.

 

[Miwa]

LOL at having someplace to park 3 cars (I'd love to have that!). I'd still have an R8 if I had somewhere to park it.

I dearly miss the gated shifter of the R8.. the clack-clack of shifting was so satisfying.

I do agree that folks can get by with a Bolt and some other car pretty easily. Even if you are all EV, renting something for a once-a-year road trip isn't even that hard. We'll have a Bolt and a Taycan in the garage if my car ever gets released from port.

 

[Gwaihir]

@Kingske

well over time I believe we simply modify the list to:

1. Chevy Bolt
2. Hybrid SUV
3. Mazda Miata

I listed those porsche models cause this is a Porsche forum - you'll achieve similar results and the cars listed above are all already on market and affordable for most families and inline with what they are paying for other vehicles.

I needed a second car because of my trailer won’t fit behind the Taycan. . . .

 

[riburn3]

Ultimately yes, the gas supercar is dead. We are already seeing them mix a combo of battery and ICE together to make some of the fastest cars in the world.

Considering a car like a Model 3 can offer speed and supercar performance for $60k, at least briefly, to me spells the end. Porsche is advancing staying power technology in their electric motors. Its just a short matter of time.

There will always be a nostalgia factor, likely forever. But if you want the best of the best that can be tuned from your phone or computer, EV is the future.

 

[993_4S]

Interesting discussion. The Taycan is my 4th EV (2 were Teslas), but I still love my gas sports cars. I have a 1997 911 and a supercharged Huracan Performante and they both bring a different type of joy than EVs. The petro cars are now more of a hobby than forms of transportation.

 

[Adam]

two things:

1. H2 is mostly made from fossil fuels - cracking H2O is too expensive energywise
   1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production?wprov=sfti1
   2. you still throw off CO2 after making H2 from fossil fuels
   3. this still uses natural gas as a fuel source, but rather than burning it you chemically “crack” and strip the H atoms form the hydro-carbon chains - but still have all the same emissions as to do with burning the fuel - you simple isolate the H2 to be burned later cleanly, and you move all the GHG emissions to the refining process rather than during fuel burning in the ICE.
   4. you say potato I say patato…
2. Fuel Cells are about 19-26% efficien vs. 68% efficient for battery EV’s

4% of commerical H2 production is from water - the remainder is surprisingly similiar in nature to existing fossil fuel refining methods - which is a familar business model for the existin fossil fuel industry - they are unsurprisingly big fans of Fuel Cells - cause it leaves them in the fundementially the same business model. Extract Fossil Fuels, Refine Fossil Fuels, Distribute the refined product as pre-packaged refined pure high density energy products. You’ve simply move the “emissions” to a different part of the consumption chain.

fuel cells have applications - but it is still fundenmentally a 20% efficient solution using fossil fuel as a fuel source…I’m dubious - it’s clean at the exhaust pipe, but all the emissions are move to a different place in the fuel chain - and the raw amount of electricity used to make H2 is largely lost in packaging and distribution.

to read the chart above you start with 100 kWh of renewable power at the top - and the bottom shows how much of the original 100 kWh actually ends up being available to move the vehicle in the final step…

Fuel Cell vehicles are 19-23% efficient
Battery EV’s are 69% efficient

this chart also ignore the real complexity of H2 fueling - H2 is one of the most dangerous and volatile substances known to man and very very difficult to safely handle for a mass market average consumer product.

Also a good point against fuel cell cars is the loss of regen braking. Friction brakes are an awfully inefficient and wasteful system that also contributes significantly to pollution in crowded areas (such as LA). In BEVs the friction brakes are mostly for track and emergency use, with the majority of my street stops being done by turning kinetic energy into energy stored in the battery. I have yet to order a Taycan, but I hope when I test drive it there is a good 1 pedal driving setup to maximize the benefits of a BEV.

 

[daveo4EV]

Taycan's one pedal driving will disappoint you (I know this coming from Tesla and Bolt) - Porsche is all in on the brake pedal and having regen blended with friction brakes - there is some loose regen that can be turned on via steering wheel or vehicle settings - but it's no where near as strong as Tesla or Bolt…

now when you go the brakes

the regen is strong with this one!!! impressive, very impressive!! - Darth Vader

you'll enjoy the test drive - please move your cash vehicle funds off shore and make sure you can't transfer them back in time to purchase it - otherwise you'll purchase one on the spot.

 

[Adam]

Taycan's one pedal driving will disappoint you (I know this coming from Tesla and Bolt) - Porsche is all in on the brake pedal and having regen blended with friction brakes - there is some loose regen that can be turned on via steering wheel or vehicle settings - but it's no where near as strong as Tesla or Bolt…

now when you go the brakes


you'll enjoy the test drive - please move your cash vehicle funds off shore and make sure you can't transfer them back in time to purchase it - otherwise you'll purchase one on the spot.

Damn, shame to hear that. I guess a software update to address that is unlikely with Porsche. Odd how they didn't go for one pedal driving style, I remember the PDK porsche transmissions were fairly dialed and had quite a lot of engine engagement and braking.

I kind of want to go test drive a Taycan 4s but after the disappointment that was the 2020 Model S, I am kind of worried about making an impulse buy. The price is actually a lot closer than I thought, someone told me the Taycan started at double the Model S, but turns out it's closer to +40% for what seems like a lot more car. Moving my cash offshore might be a good idea, hah!

 

[jimithing]

Damn, shame to hear that. I guess a software update to address that is unlikely with Porsche. Odd how they didn't go for one pedal driving style, I remember the PDK porsche transmissions were fairly dialed and had quite a lot of engine engagement and braking.

I kind of want to go test drive a Taycan 4s but after the disappointment that was the 2020 Model S, I am kind of worried about making an impulse buy. The price is actually a lot closer than I thought, someone told me the Taycan started at double the Model S, but turns out it's closer to +40% for what seems like a lot more car. Moving my cash offshore might be a good idea, hah!

The regen/coasting was a design decision to help range since the car is so heavy. Coasting is more efficient than regen, with friction brakes bring way worse than either. They also wanted to keep the experience from bring too weird for existing customers. Having the brake pedal initiate regen is a smart, if overly complicated, solution & they've executed it well.

The good news for one-pedal driving fans is that there's nothing stopping them from adding an additional "one pedal" regen mode to the software in the future. I won't be surprised to see it appear in a year or two if enough customers ask for it. If you want it, mention it whenever they send you a survey.

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