"Electrify America Chargers Are Rarely Used - What’s Up With Non-Tesla Fast Charging?" - Link

Tooney

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Note: Link to Forbes article worked for free once, then may prompt for subscription
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradte...ly-usedwhats-up-with-non-tesla-fast-charging/

Excerpts:
Electrify America reported they conducted 1.45 million charging sessions in 2021. They announce that with pride, but it’s worth noting that they had around 3,500 charging stalls at the end of 2021, and around 2,300 at the start, for an average of just under 3,000. So that works out to a rough average of around 1.25 charging sessions a day per stall, a shockingly low number. They began the year with just 0.5 sessions per day and grew to the larger number by the end of the year.

Of course, as an average, some stalls would see far more and some less, and they would see more on some days and less on others. As such many stalls would not see use on many days, while others might get a line at certain times.

EA charges 31 cents/kWh if you pay their $4/month membership fee, and 43 cents otherwise in most locations.

According to EA, they distributed 41 gigawatt-hours in 2021 in this 1.45 million sessions, for an average session of around 28 kWh — which amounts to 80 to 120 miles of range per session, much less than the capacity of most modern cars. In addition, even if they earned the full 43 cents for each kWh, this implies revenue of around 17 million dollars. At the USA average price of 13 cents/kWh this suggests roughly 12M of gross margin.

These small numbers are surprising because Electrify America is the largest of the non-Tesla charging network (though a fairly distant 2nd to Tesla.) It’s unlikely any of the others are doing much better. The number is certainly not enough to support the cost of a charging station, though today that cost is handled by government subsidies, and particularly in the case of EA, due to the large penalty VW had to pay over the dieselgate scandal, which is what got EA started. Based on data from subsidy applications in California and Texas, installation costs anywhere from $100,000 to $200,000 per stall, while Tesla manages a much lower price.

There are a variety of possible reasons for this low usage:
• A large fraction of EV buyers are homeowners. That’s because EVs are perceived as expensive (mostly false) and because owning an EV is a much nicer experience if you can install charging at home (very true.) Those who have charging at home only use fast charging stations when on intercity road trips, and thus they make up only a small fraction of charging.
• It appears that non-Tesla cars don’t do too many EV road trips. Casual observation of fast charging stations (both Tesla and non-Tesla) and non-urban locations shows that non-Tesla cars are much less frequently observed outside the cities. They were barely observed at all before EA. Tesla has worked very hard to establish their cars as the best (and sometimes) only cars which are easy to road trip in, and while this is changing, things are taking time to change with it. (In fact, now that many Tesla drivers have adapters, it turns out that at some stations, Teslas are now the most common car to visit! That was definitely true for some time with CHAdeMO stations, as that’s what Tesla’s first adapter supported.)
• Another reason may be that non-Tesla stations have earned a (deserved) reputation for low reliability. Without reliability, drivers are more afraid to take road trips where they might get stranded.
....
All network operators need to get rid of their reputation for low reliability. EA’s inspectors are just the start. Stations should get better at detecting any problems. If they can’t detect them each station should have a button in its UA for a driver to report a problem. Repairs should be dispatched more quickly. Sadly, one reason they aren’t is the low revenue numbers for the stations. Selling electricity to EVs is not yet a business, and it may have trouble ever becoming one. It’s not funded on revenue but on grants and penalties — or in the case of Tesla, because it sells cars, not electricity. This creates a risk that there is less motive to keep stations in good order. (Hard numbers on Tesla usage are not available, Tesla does not respond to press inquiries.)
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ThePaddyWan

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I wonder if there's a breakdown of the sessions per day per station by region. Definitely here in the SF Bay there's always folks using them. Probably much different than less populated areas with low EV adoption.
 

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If Porsche is all in, they should drop some $$$ and build some state of the art indoor charging facilities that put Tesla to shame. Not widespread, but it would certainly be nice to access at or around the local dealerships.
 

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If Porsche is all in, they should drop some $$$ and build some state of the art indoor charging facilities that put Tesla to shame. Not widespread, but it would certainly be nice to access at or around the local dealerships.
I would like to see more of a push from automakers to fill in gaps during this early adopter period. But why at Porsche dealers? It’s already annoying that some electrify America stations are a few miles off the highway. They should be on highway service roads to minimize wasted time.
 

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I would like to see more of a push from automakers to fill in gaps during this early adopter period. But why at Porsche dealers? It’s already annoying that some electrify America stations are a few miles off the highway. They should be on highway service roads to minimize wasted time.
I’m speaking clearly from a selfish perspective…Champion Porsche in Pompano Beach, Florida (our dealership) is one of the largest (and at times is the largest) Porsche Dealer in the US. They have ample real estate, they are 100 yards east of Interstate 95 in Broward County, Florida. I’m not saying it needs to be at the dealerships, but it would be a decent jumping off point if the dealers had available real estate.
 


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Note: Link to Forbes article worked for free once, then may prompt for subscription
TL;DR

forbes is a terrible source of info.
I find their articles to be poorly researched and very biased.
 

JDNEPA

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If Porsche is all in, they should drop some $$$ and build some state of the art indoor charging facilities that put Tesla to shame. Not widespread, but it would certainly be nice to access at or around the local dealerships.

……because Porsche has done so well making chargers. Didnt they just push an update to throttle their chargers and are having dealers set them to half amps to avoid overheating? Would love for them to throw money at it but maybe behind a good company with the tech (like Andersen - think they just declared bankruptcy but are well regarded in UK and EU)……..or better buy Tesla supercharger access / retro ccs capability for Porsche cars. It would be a quicker and better solve if they dealt that up somehow.
 

kort

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……because Porsche has done so well making chargers. Didnt they just push an update to throttle their chargers and are having dealers set them to half amps to avoid overheating? Would love for them to throw money at it but maybe behind a good company with the tech (like Andersen - think they just declared bankruptcy but are well regarded in UK and EU)……..or better buy Tesla supercharger access / retro ccs capability for Porsche cars. It would be a quicker and better solve if they dealt that up somehow.
the thing about the chargers is that like many other parts of the car that are frustrating the chargers were not designed or built by porsche, they outsourced the creation and making of the chargers and the QC of many of the outsourced aspects of the car is far below what you'd expect from porsche engineering.
 


slothinker

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Note: Link to Forbes article worked for free once, then may prompt for subscription
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradte...ly-usedwhats-up-with-non-tesla-fast-charging/

Excerpts:
Electrify America reported they conducted 1.45 million charging sessions in 2021. They announce that with pride, but it’s worth noting that they had around 3,500 charging stalls at the end of 2021, and around 2,300 at the start, for an average of just under 3,000. So that works out to a rough average of around 1.25 charging sessions a day per stall, a shockingly low number. They began the year with just 0.5 sessions per day and grew to the larger number by the end of the year.

Of course, as an average, some stalls would see far more and some less, and they would see more on some days and less on others. As such many stalls would not see use on many days, while others might get a line at certain times.

EA charges 31 cents/kWh if you pay their $4/month membership fee, and 43 cents otherwise in most locations.

According to EA, they distributed 41 gigawatt-hours in 2021 in this 1.45 million sessions, for an average session of around 28 kWh — which amounts to 80 to 120 miles of range per session, much less than the capacity of most modern cars. In addition, even if they earned the full 43 cents for each kWh, this implies revenue of around 17 million dollars. At the USA average price of 13 cents/kWh this suggests roughly 12M of gross margin.

These small numbers are surprising because Electrify America is the largest of the non-Tesla charging network (though a fairly distant 2nd to Tesla.) It’s unlikely any of the others are doing much better. The number is certainly not enough to support the cost of a charging station, though today that cost is handled by government subsidies, and particularly in the case of EA, due to the large penalty VW had to pay over the dieselgate scandal, which is what got EA started. Based on data from subsidy applications in California and Texas, installation costs anywhere from $100,000 to $200,000 per stall, while Tesla manages a much lower price.

There are a variety of possible reasons for this low usage:
• A large fraction of EV buyers are homeowners. That’s because EVs are perceived as expensive (mostly false) and because owning an EV is a much nicer experience if you can install charging at home (very true.) Those who have charging at home only use fast charging stations when on intercity road trips, and thus they make up only a small fraction of charging.
• It appears that non-Tesla cars don’t do too many EV road trips. Casual observation of fast charging stations (both Tesla and non-Tesla) and non-urban locations shows that non-Tesla cars are much less frequently observed outside the cities. They were barely observed at all before EA. Tesla has worked very hard to establish their cars as the best (and sometimes) only cars which are easy to road trip in, and while this is changing, things are taking time to change with it. (In fact, now that many Tesla drivers have adapters, it turns out that at some stations, Teslas are now the most common car to visit! That was definitely true for some time with CHAdeMO stations, as that’s what Tesla’s first adapter supported.)
• Another reason may be that non-Tesla stations have earned a (deserved) reputation for low reliability. Without reliability, drivers are more afraid to take road trips where they might get stranded.
....
All network operators need to get rid of their reputation for low reliability. EA’s inspectors are just the start. Stations should get better at detecting any problems. If they can’t detect them each station should have a button in its UA for a driver to report a problem. Repairs should be dispatched more quickly. Sadly, one reason they aren’t is the low revenue numbers for the stations. Selling electricity to EVs is not yet a business, and it may have trouble ever becoming one. It’s not funded on revenue but on grants and penalties — or in the case of Tesla, because it sells cars, not electricity. This creates a risk that there is less motive to keep stations in good order. (Hard numbers on Tesla usage are not available, Tesla does not respond to press inquiries.)
Excellent summary of the current situation ... thank you.
 

slothinker

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I’m speaking clearly from a selfish perspective…Champion Porsche in Pompano Beach, Florida (our dealership) is one of the largest (and at times is the largest) Porsche Dealer in the US. They have ample real estate, they are 100 yards east of Interstate 95 in Broward County, Florida. I’m not saying it needs to be at the dealerships, but it would be a decent jumping off point if the dealers had available real estate.
If I had a dollar for every "largest Porsche dealer in the U.S." ... I'd have at least $25.
 

JDNEPA

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the thing about the chargers is that like many other parts of the car that are frustrating the chargers were not designed or built by porsche, they outsourced the creation and making of the chargers and the QC of many of the outsourced aspects of the car is far below what you'd expect from porsche engineering.

Agree - 100%
…..to be honest I’m a little angsty and the suggestion of Porsche in the same mention of doing chargers. The mention was just comical to me given recent developments.…. Obviously if Porsche could do it well, sure. However, the latest and recent data points indicate that developing chargers are not Porsche‘s strong suit…. They did put their brand on them and it’s the same as building yourself; they still endorsed them and fact is they fail to live up to spec for which porsche billed customers. I may feel definitely if they refund half the price of my PMCC.
 

Fsudoles

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If I had a dollar for every "largest Porsche dealer in the U.S." ... I'd have at least $25.
This (attached below) is from the Champion Website….apparently it’s an annual battle between Champion and Beverly Hills for sales…I would think other Porsche dealers would take umbrage with this if inaccurate. There are some random Rennlist posts about this subject too….it’s no big deal to me, but they have been an awesome place to deal with….we’re on our third Champion Porsche.

When Champion Porsche was founded in 1988, we became the largest Porsche Dealership in the country, a position that we have held ever since. Over the last 33 years, we have turned our passion for luxury and performance into what is now the #1 Porsche Dealer in America. Today, we buy, sell, and service new and used Porsche vehicles around the world, but we are also much more than that. In fact, our 22-acre campus serves as a central hub for everything that is Porsche for the greater Pompano Beach area. This includes vehicle sales of course, but it also includes rich racing history and restoration, Porsche Tequipment accessories, authentic Porsche Driver’s Select gear, and world-class Porsche service.
 

slothinker

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This (attached below) is from the Champion Website….apparently it’s an annual battle between Champion and Beverly Hills for sales…I would think other Porsche dealers would take umbrage with this if inaccurate. There are some random Rennlist posts about this subject too….it’s no big deal to me, but they have been an awesome place to deal with….we’re on our third Champion Porsche.

When Champion Porsche was founded in 1988, we became the largest Porsche Dealership in the country, a position that we have held ever since. Over the last 33 years, we have turned our passion for luxury and performance into what is now the #1 Porsche Dealer in America. Today, we buy, sell, and service new and used Porsche vehicles around the world, but we are also much more than that. In fact, our 22-acre campus serves as a central hub for everything that is Porsche for the greater Pompano Beach area. This includes vehicle sales of course, but it also includes rich racing history and restoration, Porsche Tequipment accessories, authentic Porsche Driver’s Select gear, and world-class Porsche service.
Good for Champion Porsche being the largest! The challenge comes in when other dealers make the same claim to potential customers either about Porsche cars in general or selling of particular models. Does size matter as long as the sales force works for their customer as well as their company and the service is top notch?
 
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Fsudoles

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I'm glad Champion Porsche is the largest. Their problem comes in when other dealers make the same claim to potential customers either about Porsche cars in general or particular models. Does size matter as long as the sales force works for their customer as well as their company and the service top notch?
From my limited experience (three deals and several service visits), they are best in class….although the only comps I have are non Porsche dealers. Champion is the kind of place you like to just hang out for a while, check the inventory, have a coffee/snack and soak it all in. They have an annual event in March that draws hundreds into the low thousands…Porsches, All Euro and Muscle cars invited…it’s a scene.
 

slothinker

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From my limited experience (three deals and several service visits), they are best in class….although the only comps I have are non Porsche dealers. Champion is the kind of place you like to just hang out for a while, check the inventory, have a coffee/snack and soak it all in. They have an annual event in March that draws hundreds into the low thousands…Porsches, All Euro and Muscle cars invited…it’s a scene.
Sorry I don't live in Florida! Thanks for the great recommendation to East Coast folks.
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