Heckled at the EA Charger in Amarillo TX

[DerekS]

Seems like EVs would lower gasoline prices since they would be cutting back on the demand for oil much like covid did.

Exactly. ICE fans should cheer EV adoption! The more people switch, the more gas demand drops and the price follows.

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[Jrkennedy37]

I am all for EV's, have been driving them exclusively since 2013 (primarily because I like the way they drive and charging at home, saving the planet is secondary), but to be fair, many of the points above should be considered, rather than waived off as crazy. Too many people today just call the other side crazy and don't even consider the other side questions/arguments.


The utilities in Texas do already offer incentives for people to install HVAC thermostats on which they can turn up the target temperature or plaid shut off your AC when the grid is peaking. AC takes 5-10x less power than an AV and often is not on continuously for 8 hours at a time. So, if AC's make a difference to the grid, EV's definitely will. Of course ev-to-grid technology would actually stabilize the grid, but it's not quite ready for prime time yet.


There may be neighborhoods which would not be able to handle it if everyone got EV's and charged whenever they want. When they were built decades ago, the grid was not designed for most households to draw 10-40KW continuously for hours at a time. I know someone who lives in a neighborhood where during really hot days, they have brownouts or even blackouts because of all the AC's which run overtime. When both our EV's are charging simultaneously, they can pull up to 31KW combined (just for cars), add to that the rest of the home (AC's, etc) and out house has drawn 40KW during peaks. I am almost certain if every house on the block would pull 40KW continuously, there would be a blackout. I actually crank down the charge rates on our EV's to 21KW max, unless I really have to charge quick. There are technologies which can mitigate this, some of which people have been working on for years now, but most of them are not deployed yet - those technologies allow the utility to control charging power used for EV charging dynamically.


This is a very good question to ask. While most Tesla's for example reach 100K miles, most Nissan Leaf's, especially the early ones, did not last so well. A good indicator, and a hedge against failire, is how long he batteries will last is the warranty. Notice even Tesla got rid of unlimited miles, 8 year warranty for their batteries (which protect against failure and only guarantee 70% of original capacity).


Why would you say it's crazy to ask this? This is absolutely a valid question. EV batteries are not cheap. Sure, maybe for someone who buys a Taycan a $25K+ battery swap doesn't seem like a huge deal, they probably don't even plan to own the car past the battery warranty, but for a lot of people the cost of the EV battery is higher than a cost of inexpensive new ICE car, so of course they will say that they don't want to buy used EV's without battery warranty - a new ICE is a much better value proposition if your budget is limited and your goal is transportation.


Also a valid question. If there is a prolonged blackout, how are you planning to fuel your Taycan? Sure you can argue if there is no electricity the gas pumps will also dry out, but I actually lived through a blackout in Seattle area where parts of the state, including Microsoft home town Redmond, were out of power for as long as 3 days. My home was only out for about 10 hrs, but had family and friends who were without power for 3 days. After that, given we had no more ICE cars left, I installed a whole house generator which can charge our EV's if needed (slower than when on grid, but at least can charge overnight).


I installed my own NEMA 14-50, it costed me more in required state inspection (~$100) than the parts for the job. BUT, I have friends who cannot do their own electrical. Calling around different electricians, they were unable to find anyone who would install it under $2,000 (and last one was over a year ago, today probably more). Again, compared to a cost of a Taycan, may not be significant, but for someone who wants to buy a used car for $20K, a significant cost. Yes, I get that the electricians are gauging, they learned NEMA 14-50 in a garage is for an EV (Seattle area has a ton of Teslas) and decided it's a great opportunity to make money, but the reality is it's next to impossible to find an electrician around here anymore who will install a NEMA 14-50 in the garage for less. So no surprise, people think of this as a $2K+ plug. Is a $2000 plus considered expensive, well, I guess that depends on for whom, but I bet majority of Americans would consider it an expensive plug.


That's just FUD. Yes, there was a Tesla, perhaps few which caught on fire, but ICE cars catch on fire too. There was the highly publicized Chevy Bolt issue, where customers were in fact told not to park the cars anywhere near residences for over a year while the manufacturer was trying to figure out how to fix a problem which did catch a bunch of them on fire. Of course when people hear than, they might remember "EV" rather than "Chevy Bolt", but that's just human nature.

Bottom line, rather than roll your eyes and make dismissing sighing noises at people who make these arguments, address them - have a calm and logical conversation. Dismissing their concerns, which as you can see can be valid, is just entrenching them in the opinion that EV fans are a crazy cult of fanboys who don't listen to reason.

It’s all FUD. These are not questions from someone who is evaluating an EV, hence #8. They’re sound byte retorts to the excitement and gas savings I’m experiencing as a relatively new EV owner. My BiL recently decided to replace his totaled 4Runner with an EV and is going through the same interrogation by various parents and friends who have never touched an EV before, do not intend to buy one, skew older and tend to listen to media outlets that have a heavy tilt for O&G interests.

The biggest factor, so far, that’s changing attitudes about EVs here in Texas and encouraging Texans to learn more about the practicalities of living with an EV is their beloved, trusted Ford is releasing an EV F-150.

 

[kort]

Bottom line, rather than roll your eyes and make dismissing sighing noises at people who make these arguments, address them - have a calm and logical conversation. Dismissing their concerns, which as you can see can be valid, is just entrenching them in the opinion that EV fans are a crazy cult of fanboys who don't listen to reason.

thanks for this well thought out remark.
many of the comments are indeed quite dismissive of those who are not as well informed about EVs as many who are on this forum are.

while I wouldn't bother engaging a random nit wit I am always talking to people at social engagements about life with an EV, I am always willing to let them look at, even sit in the car, I describe how different chargers have different levels of charging. I tell them both the good and the bad of life with an EV.

I like you have been driving EVs since 2013, I don't do it to save the earth.

 

[DerekS]

Bottom line, rather than roll your eyes and make dismissing sighing noises at people who make these arguments, address them - have a calm and logical conversation. Dismissing their concerns, which as you can see can be valid, is just entrenching them in the opinion that EV fans are a crazy cult of fanboys who don't listen to reason.

To be fair I did try to engage the guy in a positive way.
When he revealed he hates EVs, I responded with a friendly "oh come on man, these things are fun to drive, why do you feel that way?"

It was only when he devolved into conspiracy nonsense that I gave up trying to interact. There is no reasoning with that.

 

[RingoDingo]

To be fair I did try to engage the guy in a positive way.
When he revealed he hates EVs, I responded with a friendly "oh come on man, these things are fun to drive, why do you feel that way?"

It was only when he devolved into conspiracy nonsense that I gave up trying to interact. There is no reasoning with that.

It is Amarillo - not exactly the most enlightened place on planet earth. Outside of the major metropolitan areas in Texas, I suspect that anything that seeks to move us away from oil and gas will be perceived as a threat to Texas' long term prospects (even though Tesla is now headquartered here). My guess is most people wouldn't even know you had an EV unless you were charging or specifically told them. They just see fancy Porsche.

 

[whitex]

thanks for this well thought out remark.
many of the comments are indeed quite dismissive of those who are not as well informed about EVs as many who are on this forum are.

while I wouldn't bother engaging a random nit wit I am always talking to people at social engagements about life with an EV, I am always willing to let them look at, even sit in the car, I describe how different chargers have different levels of charging. I tell them both the good and the bad of life with an EV.

I like you have been driving EVs since 2013, I don't do it to save the earth.

You are correct that you cannot rationally discuss with everyone, especially as they go off on some conspiracy theory tangents. Sometimes trying to argue those conspiracies only makes people dig their heels in even more.

That said, all the topics listed in the post I was responding to were actually valid points, rather than conspiracy theories, so they should be able to be addressed rationally. And yes, that might mean admitting that some neighborhoods today might not be able to handle it if everyone suddenly got EV's tomorrow. But you can also talk then how that is not a reason to ban EV's, how everyone is not suddenly going to be buying all EV's tomorrow, how this problem can be mitigated via smart charging for example, and how in the long term it will actually result in a more stable and capable grid.

 

[whitex]

To be fair I did try to engage the guy in a positive way.
When he revealed he hates EVs, I responded with a friendly "oh come on man, these things are fun to drive, why do you feel that way?"

It was only when he devolved into conspiracy nonsense that I gave up trying to interact. There is no reasoning with that.

I completely understand your position here. My comment was more about the list of concerns which were listed in the post I was replying to, which were not the "government is jacking the price of gas up" type conspiracy theory. Arguing with people over a conspiracy theory is usually pointless, or even counter productive as it makes some conspiracy theorist even more entrenched in their positions. Sometimes they even justify to themselves that if people are trying to convince them otherwise, that is proof the conspiracy is true.

 

[whitex]

It’s all FUD. These are not questions from someone who is evaluating an EV, hence #8. They’re sound byte retorts to the excitement and gas savings I’m experiencing as a relatively new EV owner. My BiL recently decided to replace his totaled 4Runner with an EV and is going through the same interrogation by various parents and friends who have never touched an EV before, do not intend to buy one, skew older and tend to listen to media outlets that have a heavy tilt for O&G interests.

The biggest factor, so far, that’s changing attitudes about EVs here in Texas and encouraging Texans to learn more about the practicalities of living with an EV is their beloved, trusted Ford is releasing an EV F-150.

If the FUD is based on valid concerns, address the concerns, therefore mitigate the FUD. People asking valid questions are not interrogating you, they are sharing valid concerns. If you don't address and just roll your eyes, that is how you get #8.

It's also worth mentioning that EV's are not for everyone today. Even though I've been an EV fan and driver for a long time, there are definitely use-cases where today's EV's just don't work. For example if you usually drive significantly more than 200 miles a day without access to mostly available (i.e. no long wait times) fast chargers along your route (e.g. traveling sales people, or full time Uber/Lyft/Amazon drivers). Also, if you don't have reliable overnight charging, EV's may not be a great experience for you (e.g. parking on the street, having to charge exclusively at DC charging stations, especially if there are none near your home). It's ok to admit that EV's are not a universal panacea without any drawbacks.

 

[Jrkennedy37]

If the FUD is based on valid concerns, address the concerns, therefore mitigate the FUD. People asking valid questions are not interrogating you, they are sharing valid concerns. If you don't address and just roll your eyes, that is how you get #8.

It's also worth mentioning that EV's are not for everyone today. Even though I've been an EV fan and driver for a long time, there are definitely use-cases where today's EV's just don't work. For example if you usually drive significantly more than 200 miles a day without access to mostly available (i.e. no long wait times) fast chargers along your route (e.g. traveling sales people, or full time Uber/Lyft/Amazon drivers). Also, if you don't have reliable overnight charging, EV's may not be a great experience for you (e.g. parking on the street, having to charge exclusively at DC charging stations, especially if there are none near your home). It's ok to admit that EV's are not a universal panacea without any drawbacks.

I completely agree with you when the intent is genuine interest vs relaying their own judgement in the form of questions, seeking validation of their preformed opinion.

Living in Texas, these opinions/questions arise at kids’ school events, the barber chair, family dinners, and at the office. Most are captive settings where I’m required to address them in a diplomatic manner lol. Then move the conversation to the next topic. The OP took the right approach with his response to the stranger in Amarillo.


100% true they’re not for everyone. Though, I also think there are many people who would benefit from an EV that resist based on political alignments or the FUD they're exposed to through media and their social/professional circle. My BiL was not considering an EV until I discussed available models and practicality for his and his wife’s daily needs.

I work with a number of automakers (including Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, Porsche) at a very large media company and see first hand what real car buyers are concerned about with EVs. How these automakers advertise the cars tends to align more with emotions than the actual buyer concerns but I think that’s finally changing with Porsche’s Bill Nye Taycan ads and GM’s recent EV offer to include home charger installation with each EV. Here are the concerns/questions, ranked:
1. Where do I charge if I don’t have a home garage/plug?
2. High upfront cost of EV vs equivalent ICE
3. Range anxiety and fitting daily lifestyle
4. Cost to charge the vehicle

 

[CarbonTax]

So I'm working my way back home from my road trip, and I'm charging fairly late at night when a guy running the street sweeper in the Sam's Club parking lot pulled up.

"If that thing took gas you'd be done already!"

I was on a short charge hop so I countered that I was almost done and had only been here 6 minutes.
He then pivoted to his next anti-EV talking point.

"Better hope that thing doesn't catch on fire!"

At this point I realize he was just one of those Facebook trolls in real life, so I asked if he just hated EVs, and he agreed that he did.

"I just don't like what they're doin, jackin up the gas prices to try and force people into EVs."

I disengaged at that point because there was no point trying to talk to someone this ignorant.

You live in Texas, right? should be used to that drivel

 

[Vercingetorix]

Texas needs to up their solar game to charge evs. Astonishing how little solar I saw in Texas and I just drove across the state and was actively looking for it.

 

[whitex]

I completely agree with you when the intent is genuine interest vs relaying their own judgement in the form of questions, seeking validation of their preformed opinion.

I agree there are people like that. However, you might be surprised, if you agree with them, tell them they have a valid point, but then proceed to explain that their generalization does not apply to all situations, sometimes they will learn. If on the other had you roll your eyes, get defensive, tell them they are just looking for reasons to attack your ideas, or that you don't have time to explain to them how wrong they are, they will clam up almost for sure. Even if you don't end up convincing them on the spot, you might seed some doubt in their mind that perhaps their pre-formed opinion is incomplete.

The OP took the right approach with his response to the stranger in Amarillo.

Agreed there. When it comes to conspiracy theory believers, it's next to impossible to turn them. Proving to them how irrational they are only makes them dig their heels in.

I work with a number of automakers (including Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, Porsche) at a very large media company and see first hand what real car buyers are concerned about with EVs. How these automakers advertise the cars tends to align more with emotions than the actual buyer concerns but I think that’s finally changing with Porsche’s Bill Nye Taycan ads and GM’s recent EV offer to include home charger installation with each EV. Here are the concerns/questions, ranked:
1. Where do I charge if I don’t have a home garage/plug?
2. High upfront cost of EV vs equivalent ICE
3. Range anxiety and fitting daily lifestyle
4. Cost to charge the vehicle

All of the above listed concerns are valid concerns. If you want to convince someone, you need to acknowledge them and address them, rather than attack the people having the concerns. I've personally done that, with good results sometimes (i.e. the person ends up buying an EV). It helps by the way to be objective, admit that EV's are not for everyone, then help them figure out whether or not an EV would be a good choice for them specifically. If you come at people with "everyone should switch to EV's" you instantly lose credibility. I have met such EV fanatics over the years too.

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