I am watching the “sh*t show” that EA is live and in person

[fullmetalbaal]

It has everything to do with government.

T network is proprietary, so it is not a public infrastructure.

Agreed. Private, proprietary.

EA is public infrastructure. Anybody with an EV can use it. So who invests in public infrastructure, if it does not make money or if it only makes money for the whole economy???

Public infrastructure: infrastructure owned and run by the government.
EA is owned and run by VW. That's not public.

It's private, and "open".

It's also a shit-show, though I'd argue that's currently largely unrelated to it being open.
Though I am willing to bet that this will over time become a downside: premium cars with fast charging capabilities will get bottlenecked by econoboxes trickle charging at 50kw.
A tiered system will be complicated to introduce. They should have enforced a minimum charging speed IMHO.

Sponsored

 

[fullmetalbaal]

Audi also has big plans in Germany, too, but I think it is a waste of money. Batteries get better and we need more fast charger at perfect locations.

I strongly disagree. I think it would be a great selling point to have Porsche lounges on the main travel points for luxury cars (e.g., between SF and LA, SF to Napa) and in major cities (e.g., SF downtown). I don't live in SF, I just don't think Seattle has enough critical mass... though recently maybe it does. I bet the OpEx is fairly limited, it's basically advertising in the form of CapEx.

The beautiful thing is, we can watch this play out. This is literally the Rivian playbook.

You can cherry pick locations that fit your brand and/or that are likely profitable, and let the broader network cover the rest.

 

[Scandinavian]

To prevent this, IONITY has quickly raised the price to close to a dollar per kWh.

You have never charged your Taycan at an EnBW or or other station that is covered by the Porsche Charging service in Germany, have you?

They work fine to connect and establish a charging session which is great. However my experience at a number of these is that they do NOT deliver the promised power. On several 300 kW station I only got 100 to 150 kW. Which means it takes more TIME to charge.

The Porsche Charging service pricing is so that you will pay 0.39 Eurocents per kWh PLUS 0.45 Eurocents per Minute!

By that pricing the rate on one station got even more than the 0.79 Ionity charges.

 

[feye]

You have never charged your Taycan at an EnBW or or other station that is covered by the Porsche Charging service in Germany, have you?

Cannot travel to EU with the pandemic.

The Porsche Charging service pricing is so that you will pay 0.39 Eurocents per kWh PLUS 0.45 Eurocents per Minute!

Never heard of additional charging per minute. Is this what it should be based on your Porsche charge card contract?

 

[feye]

I strongly disagree. I think it would be a great selling point to have Porsche lounges on the main travel points for luxury cars (e.g., between SF and LA, SF to Napa) and in major cities (e.g., SF downtown). I don't live in SF, I just don't think Seattle has enough critical mass... though recently maybe it does. I bet the OpEx is fairly limited, it's basically advertising in the form of CapEx.

The beautiful thing is, we can watch this play out. This is literally the Rivian playbook.

You can cherry pick locations that fit your brand and/or that are likely profitable, and let the broader network cover the rest.

Has anybody ever charged on a 350 kW Porsche fast charger at a Porsche service center and then walk up in the the Porsche lounge to wait 20 min for the charging car? I'd rather them investing in better cars!

What I like to see in the EU, where I usual travel is an open infrastructure for 350kW fast chargers on every highway min every 30 miles in both directions without leaving the highway. That requires the government to step up.

When I did my last trip in China, this level of chargers along the highways was a revelation. You drive like an ICE, when it gets low, you drop out the highway. If charger busy or broken, just drive on to the next one.

 

[Scandinavian]

Never heard of additional charging per minute. Is this what it should be based on your Porsche charge card contract?

It is clearly stated somewhere on the Porsche site regarding charging service. See enclosed document.

 

[feye]

It is clearly stated somewhere on the Porsche site regarding charging service. See enclosed document.

Ah, ok, always learn something new. So if you charge at EnBW, you pay .35 + .45per min. That makes it indeed very expensive. But on IONITY it is only .33. Which is a good deal, right?

 

[TycanNewHampshire]

In the US, you only pay the actual fee at EA for the time that goes beyond 30min per session.
Good clarification on the Gov/Public vs. Private comments from @fullmetalbaal .

I think there could be some similar legislation that could come down the pike in the US, like the UK with standard availability - single RFID card for all. If I were to bet, this will be positioned as a public/private partnership and the US GOV would incentivize on the balance sheet with some/all of the following to incentivize Tesla Superchargers to open, or others to have Tesla connections on their cables.
a. Accelerated depreciation on their PP&E line for the hardware install/purchases.
b. R&D credit for single-platform, all vehicle usability
c. Property Tax / Rental Rebate for the locations they are put (This one, I am not 100% about as I don't know if EA/ChargePoint/Blink/Etc. actually purchases the plot they are on, has a long-term lease on the space, or pays a rev-share on profits??? Anyone know?)
d. Could actually be properly subsidized and get paid per location that is upgraded/installed with the all-vehicle usability upgrades and connections.

At any rate, I think that should be the criteria if there is any federal funding/subsidies/rebates that go to the charging networks, as then it will be a public-good and will be paid for by tax payers and thus should benefit all current and future EV's that are purchased.

 

[Scandinavian]

Ah, ok, always learn something new. So if you charge at EnBW, you pay .35 + .45per min. That makes it indeed very expensive. But on IONITY it is only .33. Which is a good deal, right?

Yes if you charge at EnBW 300 kW charger, you will pay .39 per kWh plus .45 Euro per minute. That is for the HPC. If you charge at lower power than that, say 50 kW you pay the same kWh charge but a lower .25 Euro per minute.

So the Average rate per session that I normally achieved was .54 to .60 Euro per kWh. Two stations were not able to deliver more than about 60 to 80 kW and then the cost got high. I think it was over .90 Euro per kWh!

If they want to charge a minute rate they should guarantee the delivery of power. But really why even have such a complicated system. Why not just use a rate per kWh?? Maybe there are other agreements like Shell Recharge or Maingau that have a flat kWh pricing, I do not know. Andnot really interested to have a lot of charge cards etc etc. Never had this problem with ice cars. Paid by one credit card independent of which brand Petrol I filled in the tank. In my view a totally stupid market now.

And YES Ionity is very good value for money. Just wish there were more locations With Ionity. Apart from one charging stop with 10 chargers where 7 had malfunctions, it was very reliable. It might take a few attempts to charge but so far Quite pleased.

 

[fullmetalbaal]

Has anybody ever charged on a 350 kW Porsche fast charger at a Porsche service center and then walk up in the the Porsche lounge to wait 20 min for the charging car? I'd rather them investing in better cars!

What I like to see in the EU, where I usual travel is an open infrastructure for 350kW fast chargers on every highway min every 30 miles in both directions without leaving the highway. That requires the government to step up.

When I did my last trip in China, this level of chargers along the highways was a revelation. You drive like an ICE, when it gets low, you drop out the highway. If charger busy or broken, just drive on to the next one.

This doesn't have to be "charging network or cars". These companies report BILLIONS in profit each year. They can totally afford reducing that by 10% for a few years to fund a charging network. They also spend hundreds of millions on ads each year - another area they could use to fund it. There is no NEED for the public to foot the bill and subsidize their businesses.

Whether you like Tesla or not, the fact that, as one of the smallest car companies, they managed to set up a decent charging network tells you everything you need to know whether this absolutely NEEDS public money to succeed. It doesn't.

A completely workable approach: prohibit new ICE vehicles starting 2030, or even 2025. Watch car companies realize that they need a network if they want to keep selling cars. Watch each major car company invest 1-2B into this. Sometimes as JVs, sometimes on their own. Without the government potentially forcing particular business cases and distorting the field, I wouldn't be surprised if others take the ample cheap money available right now and pitch other business cases.

 

[feye]

Yes if you charge at EnBW 300 kW charger, you will pay .39 per kWh plus .45 Euro per minute. That is for the HPC. If you charge at lower power than that, say 50 kW you pay the same kWh charge but a lower .25 Euro per minute.

So the Average rate per session that I normally achieved was .54 to .60 Euro per kWh. Two stations were not able to deliver more than about 60 to 80 kW and then the cost got high. I think it was over .90 Euro per kWh!

The slower you charge, the longer you occupy the spot the less money they make, the more it costs for you? Makes sense for them but is annoying as a customer, because you have no clue how much your charge will cost. Ugly!

How do we know, why an EV charges slower as it should? Car or station or both? Another problem for ease of use and transparency...

And then there are clueless politicians listening to lobby groups like the banks. They convinced the German gov to make a law, so every charger must have an EC card terminal. Result:

• Increase costs
• Increase infrastructure requirements for location
• Add another single point of charging failure

Instead of mandating Plug & Charge, what we really need, because we charge much more often then we use the pump.

 

[feye]

This doesn't have to be "charging network or cars". These companies report BILLIONS in profit each year. They can totally afford reducing that by 10% for a few years to fund a charging network. They also spend hundreds of millions on ads each year - another area they could use to fund it. There is no NEED for the public to foot the bill and subsidize their businesses.

That is actually not what I meant at all. The problem is, how can you as a private company add a rest place at a public/private highway to build a fast charging station?

You need land, you need changing the highway, you need grid power comp to deliver power, need more land, need more gov support...

In China this all already happened.

In Germany, the gov is working on it, but not sure, if they are smart enough to do it properly.

 

[feye]

Whether you like Tesla or not, the fact that, as one of the smallest car companies, they managed to set up a decent charging network tells you everything you need to know whether this absolutely NEEDS public money to succeed. It doesn't.

T network is nothing more than proof of concept for long distance traveling with EVs. It has no application whatsoever for large scale adoption of EVs. In fact, if you don't share charging resources, large scale adoption will take forever, and might not happen at all. It is already evident, if you compare the different markets, and the diversion is getting worse.

 

[fullmetalbaal]

T network is nothing more than proof of concept for long distance traveling with EVs. It has no application whatsoever for large scale adoption of EVs. In fact, if you don't share charging resources, large scale adoption will take forever, and might not happen at all. It is already evident, if you compare the different markets, and the diversion is getting worse.

Wait, your position is that today's most successful charging network has no application whatsoever for large scale adoption?

You realize that if one player has a substantial portion of the total market, the sharing WITHIN that market segment is enough to hit efficiency for that part of the market? There's nothing stopping us from having several large networks. We also largely had that for gas stations, and those are magnitudes more expensive to build and operate. (You can travel within most countries without straying from your favorite larger gas station brand - Shell, Exxon/Esso, Chevron in the US, maybe even Arco. Similar for Germany etc.)

 

[fullmetalbaal]

That is actually not what I meant at all. The problem is, how can you as a private company add a rest place at a public/private highway to build a fast charging station?

You need land, you need changing the highway, you need grid power comp to deliver power, need more land, need more gov support...

In China this all already happened.

In Germany, the gov is working on it, but not sure, if they are smart enough to do it properly.

The government can choose to make space available at rest places.

Also, in many countries, there are essentially no public rest stops on highways with anything more than restrooms... any coffee/gas/EV-charging stops take you off the highway...where any company can buy land an place a charger.

I would even contend, that since you're on average waiting 15-20 min anyway, being a bit away from the highway is probably nice for charging... preferably near restaurants/coffee shops, that are also on private land run by private businesses.

I'm not saying the government can't do it. China or Singapore are good examples of countries where the govt does infrastructure right. I'm saying the government doing it is not a necessity, and in many countries likely detrimental to the outcome.

Sponsored