feye

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The EPA rating... ...Hopefully Porsche will re-evaluate the EPA rating and adjust accordingly. There is no conspiracy to rate Tesla higher. That thought is foolish nonsense.
EPA never tested Tesla, just published data given by Tesla. Porsche Taycan was tested by EPA.
 

justicepool

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EPA never tested Tesla, just published data given by Tesla. Porsche Taycan was tested by EPA.

From what I understand the EPA randomly selects 15 to 20 % of vehicles to test and relies on manufacturers in other instances. Clearly the Porsche Taycan's EPA results are not accurate. One would hope for some type of challenge or re-evaluation to change the rating. Here is a link to independent results obtained by Porsche (months before the EPA rating was released).

https://amcitesting.com/taycan/

These independent results appear much more accurate based on the real world reports from actual drivers. 275-288 minus a certain percentage for real world driving seems to be much more in line with what people are reporting. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

John
 
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From what I understand the EPA randomly selects 15 to 20 % of vehicles to test and relies on manufacturers in other instances. Clearly the Porsche Taycan's EPA results are not accurate. One would hope for some type of challenge or re-evaluation to change the rating. Here is a link to independent results obtained by Porsche (months before the EPA rating was released).

https://amcitesting.com/taycan/

These independent results appear much more accurate based on the real world reports from actual drivers. 275-288 minus a certain percentage for real world driving seems to be much more in line with what people are reporting. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

John
I would rather see the EPA would actually test the Model S cuz other real world tests show that the difference between the Taycan is only 6-10%...

taycanvstesla-graphs-rangetest-1581089683.png
 

justicepool

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I would rather see the EPA would actually test the Model S cuz other real world tests show that the difference between the Taycan is only 10%...

taycanvstesla-graphs-rangetest-1581089683.png

I know with my 2020 Model X Performance the EPA range is clearly accurate and easily obtainable as I've listed actual results in this thread.
 

justicepool

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As I said, Model S, not Model X.
I haven't had a Model S in 3 years and from what I recall my Model S was not as efficient as my current Model X. It appears as if the "raven" drivetrain Telsa introduced last year significantly increased the efficiency of the Model S and Model X. I'm a skeptic when it comes to car and driver and other publications that rely on advertising revenue from products they review and test to survive. There are plenty of independent tests from actual drivers to demonstrate the Taycan range is far superior to the EPA tests. I would say with my previous Model S I would have to drive pretty conservative to reach EPA rated range. With my Model X, I am shocked that I can achieve EPA range at highway speeds under favorable conditions (no headwind, warm temperature) .

I can't wait for the all electric Macan. Hopefully that is Porsche's next offering in the EV world. The Taycan (and Model S) for that matter are too low for me to be comfortable as a daily driver.
 

KensingtonPark

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What? How's that allowed, that just seems like blatant favouritism to me.
Manufacturers get to choose:

1) Test yourself, certify that you have followed one of the approved testing protocols and submit your results.
OR
2) Give the car to the EPA, wait for them to test it, then accept the results.

Tesla chose #1, Porsche chose #2. Most choose #`1 because it takes too long and they can figure out which of the approved testing protocols gets the best result.

Since the certifications in #1 are part of what cost VW US$2.8 billion (and $25 billion globally), you can understand why they are reticent to use it.
 

justicepool

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Manufacturers get to choose:

1) Test yourself, certify that you have followed one of the approved testing protocols and submit your results.
OR
2) Give the car to the EPA, wait for them to test it, then accept the results.

Tesla chose #1, Porsche chose #2. Most choose #`1 because it takes too long and they can figure out which of the approved testing protocols gets the best result.

Since the certifications in #1 are part of what cost VW US$2.8 billion (and $25 billion globally), you can understand why they are reticent to use it.

It's not a choice. There is no conspiracy. The EPA randomly tests 15 to 20% of new vehicles every year in what equates to an audit. See page 5.

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe...ackDesc=Results page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=5
 
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So @justicepool are you aware of how many Tesla model have been randomly chosen for testing?

I recall hearing on the recent announcement from Elon Musk chatting with one of his senior engineers a comment like, have we told the EPA to publish the new figure for one of his vehicles. The wording is close to how he said it. I recall how arrogant it sounded, to me at least. I have now looked for the reference, but not able to relocate now. It may have been for the 390mi range on the new Model S.

Also I did read that he though the RWD model 3 had more range than the AWD models, he requested a lower figure get published seemingly to keep AWD sales un–detured. I am not saying that is not allowed, manufacturers have the right to request the EPA to publish lower figures.

Again I am not stating any conspiracy, but Elon certainly has quite a few connections in US government. Visible in the OSHA restrictions on Nevada Gigafactory investigations and nearly justifing Tesla Fremont as an Essential Business, as of today Alameda County force them to reduce workforce to 25%, still 2500 people.
Original article from TechCrunch.
 

justicepool

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So @justicepool are you aware of how many Tesla model have been randomly chosen for testing?

I recall hearing on the recent announcement from Elon Musk chatting with one of his senior engineers a comment like, have we told the EPA to publish the new figure for one of his vehicles. The wording is close to how he said it. I recall how arrogant it sounded, to me at least. I have now looked for the reference, but not able to relocate now. It may have been for the 390mi range on the new Model S.

Also I did read that he though the RWD model 3 had more range than the AWD models, he requested a lower figure get published seemingly to keep AWD sales un–detured. I am not saying that is not allowed, manufacturers have the right to request the EPA to publish lower figures.

Again I am not stating any conspiracy, but Elon certainly has quite a few connections in US government. Visible in the OSHA restrictions on Nevada Gigafactory investigations and nearly justifing Tesla Fremont as an Essential Business, as of today Alameda County force them to reduce workforce to 25%, still 2500 people.
Original article from TechCrunch.

I just did a quick search and couldn't find a link to the EPA auditing Tesla's EPA rating. I hesitate to state something without a source.

I did find where Consumer Reports (which as been both positive and negative about Tesla) verified the ratings listed for the Model 3.

https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/tesla-ups-ante-on-model-y-range-underscoring-ev-lead/

"In CR testing, our Model 3, running in the Daily driving setting, matched the 310-mile range reported by the EPA. In the Trip driving setting, our Model 3 achieved 350 miles. "

What you are referring to took place during the most recent earnings call. It is a little different than your memory. Probably struck you wrong because he took a shot at the Taycan EPA rating. There was a question regarding the batteries used in the Model 3/Y vs. the batteries in the Model S/X. Here is the exchange:


Martin Viecha -- Senior Director of Investor Relations

Okay. And the last question from investors is the sales of Model S and X have stayed flat for several quarters, the main reason is that they still use 18650 batteries. When will S and X use 2170 batteries? Manufacturing capacity of 18650 may be used for battery storage systems instead.

Elon Musk -- Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer

Sure. Well, actually the core chemistry inside the 18650 cell has improved many times over the years. So, it's really just a form factor as opposed to a core technology. So it's -- yes, I think we're pretty happy with where the -- with the energy content of the cell and the improvements in efficiency of the vehicle. The -- we're rapidly approaching a 400 mile range for Model S, for example. So, this is -- it won't be long before Model S is 400 -- has 400 mile range.

Drew, is there anything you want to add to that?

Andrew D. Baglino -- Chief Technology Officer

No, other than to say that the 18650 lines have been running smoothly for really long time. And in a world where self-supply is fueling growth like we're part of the fuel of growth. I don't see a reason to turn that self-supply off, so.

Martin Viecha -- Senior Director of Investor Relations

Yeah. And actually the Model S and X actually have more range than we are currently stating on the website. We just haven't gotten around to updating the, I guess, the EPA sort of might number. But the actual range of the Model S and X are above what the website says there are.

Yeah. The existing cars that are being made.

Zachary J. Kirkhorn -- Chief Financial Officer

It's actually been that way for some time.

Elon Musk -- Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah. I think we're -- yeah, it must be somewhere in the 380s or something like that for us, yes."

And then later in the discussion is likely what upset you:

Elon Musk -- Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer

Well, Powertrain is pretty damn good. I mean, it's way better than anything else out there by a country mile. It's worth noting, for example, at the -- the Model S has like 100 kilowatt hour pack, but Taycan has 100 -- like 95 kilowatt hour pack. The Model S is steadily approaching 400 miles range, the Taycan has 200 miles range. So, we must be using that energy pretty efficiently and the Powertrain is a big part of that."


Full disclaimer, I am a Tesla Fan (NOT) a Tesla Fanboy. I am also a Porsche fan (NOT) a fanboy. I have owned more Porsche's than I have Tesla's. I still have a six speed 911 that I drive on the weekends. And I'm very excited about the all electric Porsche Macan which I hope will be the next offering from Porsche.

John
 

feye

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What? How's that allowed, that just seems like blatant favouritism to me.
I think this is common practice in the US like Boeing got airplanes certified which don't fly. :angel:
 
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...
I did find where Consumer Reports (which as been both positive and negative about Tesla) verified the ratings listed for the Model 3.

https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/tesla-ups-ante-on-model-y-range-underscoring-ev-lead/

"In CR testing, our Model 3, running in the Daily driving setting, matched the 310-mile range reported by the EPA. In the Trip driving setting, our Model 3 achieved 350 miles. "
...
Thanks for looking that up.
For the Car and Driver getting 350mi range, I had to search a bit, but that was the RWD Model 3 which Tesla had EPA lower the reported range for. That is what most folks use for stating the tremendous range. It is impressive, I agree. But Tesla doesn't sell the RWD any more do they, at least not orderable on web site.
 

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I just did a quick search and couldn't find a link to the EPA auditing Tesla's EPA rating. I hesitate to state something without a source.

I did find where Consumer Reports (which as been both positive and negative about Tesla) verified the ratings listed for the Model 3.

https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/tesla-ups-ante-on-model-y-range-underscoring-ev-lead/

"In CR testing, our Model 3, running in the Daily driving setting, matched the 310-mile range reported by the EPA. In the Trip driving setting, our Model 3 achieved 350 miles. "

What you are referring to took place during the most recent earnings call. It is a little different than your memory. Probably struck you wrong because he took a shot at the Taycan EPA rating. There was a question regarding the batteries used in the Model 3/Y vs. the batteries in the Model S/X. Here is the exchange:


Martin Viecha -- Senior Director of Investor Relations

Okay. And the last question from investors is the sales of Model S and X have stayed flat for several quarters, the main reason is that they still use 18650 batteries. When will S and X use 2170 batteries? Manufacturing capacity of 18650 may be used for battery storage systems instead.

Elon Musk -- Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer

Sure. Well, actually the core chemistry inside the 18650 cell has improved many times over the years. So, it's really just a form factor as opposed to a core technology. So it's -- yes, I think we're pretty happy with where the -- with the energy content of the cell and the improvements in efficiency of the vehicle. The -- we're rapidly approaching a 400 mile range for Model S, for example. So, this is -- it won't be long before Model S is 400 -- has 400 mile range.

Drew, is there anything you want to add to that?

Andrew D. Baglino -- Chief Technology Officer

No, other than to say that the 18650 lines have been running smoothly for really long time. And in a world where self-supply is fueling growth like we're part of the fuel of growth. I don't see a reason to turn that self-supply off, so.

Martin Viecha -- Senior Director of Investor Relations

Yeah. And actually the Model S and X actually have more range than we are currently stating on the website. We just haven't gotten around to updating the, I guess, the EPA sort of might number. But the actual range of the Model S and X are above what the website says there are.

Yeah. The existing cars that are being made.

Zachary J. Kirkhorn -- Chief Financial Officer

It's actually been that way for some time.

Elon Musk -- Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah. I think we're -- yeah, it must be somewhere in the 380s or something like that for us, yes."

And then later in the discussion is likely what upset you:

Elon Musk -- Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer

Well, Powertrain is pretty damn good. I mean, it's way better than anything else out there by a country mile. It's worth noting, for example, at the -- the Model S has like 100 kilowatt hour pack, but Taycan has 100 -- like 95 kilowatt hour pack. The Model S is steadily approaching 400 miles range, the Taycan has 200 miles range. So, we must be using that energy pretty efficiently and the Powertrain is a big part of that."


Full disclaimer, I am a Tesla Fan (NOT) a Tesla Fanboy. I am also a Porsche fan (NOT) a fanboy. I have owned more Porsche's than I have Tesla's. I still have a six speed 911 that I drive on the weekends. And I'm very excited about the all electric Porsche Macan which I hope will be the next offering from Porsche.

John
“Full disclaimer, I am a Tesla Fan (NOT) a Tesla Fanboy. “ and yet you post this wall of words of superfluous details. Lol.
 

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