Dee

Well-Known Member
First Name
Dee
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
1,834
Reaction score
1,996
Location
The Netherlands
Vehicles
Yes.
Country flag
Thank you for being my support group on this....I was feeling real guilty after getting out of my Huracan....now I feel much better :blush:

Would love to hear if there is a Taycan owner who feels different from those who have posted so far.
Coming from an i3 I'm unable to comply to your request sir.
Advertisement

 
Last edited:

RCorsa

Well-Known Member
First Name
Dave
Joined
Dec 12, 2020
Messages
150
Reaction score
208
Location
Mercer Island, WA
Vehicles
2021 Taycan 4S, 2021 911 Turbo S Cab, 2019 Tesla Model 3 P, 2020 Ford Raptor
Country flag
Honestly the Taycan is such a great car. I’ve had mine a little more than 3 weeks and I’ve had several Teslas over the last 8 years but this car really feels special like the model s did in 2013.

I’m supposed to pick up my 2021 911 Turbo S Cab in 3 weeks at the PEC in Los Angeles and I’m not even that excited as the Taycan has scratched that inch which is kind of a bummer.
 
OP
OP
Lowpue

Lowpue

Active Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2020
Messages
33
Reaction score
59
Location
Puget Sound
Vehicles
1967 912, 1995 911, 2000 911, 2001 Boxster, 2002 911 4S, 2014 TurboS, 2015 Huracan, TTS ordered
Country flag
Wow....this seems to definitely be a theme....to think I almost didn't take delivery three months ago because I was happy with what I had and struggled with something being so big and heavy.
 

HK111

Well-Known Member
First Name
Henrik
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
303
Reaction score
435
Location
Germany
Vehicles
Taycan 4S, Corvette C7 Stingray, Mercedes V 4Matic
Country flag
My Corvette C7 has been in the extra garage now for a long time. Probably the car battery is dead by now. I was there today for other reasons, and I didn't even bother to check the C7's state...

EVs/the Taycan are from a different planet. And ten years down the road, they will have batteries half today's weight.

Cheers,
Henrik
 

REIL

Well-Known Member
First Name
Rick
Joined
Dec 8, 2020
Messages
261
Reaction score
232
Location
West US
Vehicles
Taycan 4S+ / MY20
Country flag
OP
OP
Lowpue

Lowpue

Active Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2020
Messages
33
Reaction score
59
Location
Puget Sound
Vehicles
1967 912, 1995 911, 2000 911, 2001 Boxster, 2002 911 4S, 2014 TurboS, 2015 Huracan, TTS ordered
Country flag

Dee

Well-Known Member
First Name
Dee
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
1,834
Reaction score
1,996
Location
The Netherlands
Vehicles
Yes.
Country flag
To your point...the car I am super interested in is the Hyperion...unfortunately will cost 10X that of the huracan.... Once Hydrogen becomes more available I think this will be the holy grail with electric motors and a hydrogen fuel cell
Crazy-looking Hyperion XP-1 fuel cell hypercar seen driving on public roads (msn.com)
If hydrogen was such a great succes we'd be driving FCEVs already.
This lobby is already 30 years old and can't even catch up with today's battery technology.
Only Toyota wants to have at least some of it's investments back...
Besides, why would car manufacturers invest billions in ev technology if FCEVs are the holy grail?
EVs have such great advantages in design, like space, weight distribution and simplicity of an electric drivetrain in compare to a complicated (and more dangerous) set-up of a FCEV.

Besides the high cost of infrastructure, there's another problem: production of hydrogen.
Why waste valuable energy while you can drive on that same energy directly??
It just doesn't make sense.

Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe.....only not on earth.
Making hydrogen is just destroying energy.
And for what?
Only to fill up as fast as petrol?
Besides, it's 3 times more expensive than electricity.
1 kg costs €10-15 (Grey H2).
1 kg is about 100 km in a FCEV.
That's the same as petrol.
The only way to produce hydrogen in large quantities at an acceptable efficiency is by MSR (Methane Steam Reforming), indeed, from natural gas and with large emissions of CO2 (Grey H2).
Blue H2 (with CO2 capture) is about €20-30/kg.
Green H2 (electrolyse) is about €40-50/kg.

We shouldn't want this.
 
Last edited:

TaycanNJ

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 16, 2020
Messages
69
Reaction score
79
Location
NJ
Vehicles
Taycan 4S
Country flag
Well, my Huracan has been my pride and joy in my collection. Always loved driving it during the summers here. Well, we had a nice day here in the pacific northwest so after running errands in the Taycan, I decided to grab lunch and took a spin in the Huracan....I must say, the Thrill is gone....I have gotten so used to instant torque that the Lambo was just not as fun as it used to be...the sound was still great and I loved the experience on the on ramp but Taycan has set such high standards. I am thoroughly confused now on what I like. Will have to see what happens this summer. Has anyone else had this experience. The taycan is just such a refined performance machine. Here is a pic of the cars side by side.
Beautiful Huracan! I had a 2016 GT3 for 3 years when I got the Taycan. I really hate to admit, and I wouldn't to anyone that doesn't own a Taycan, but it definitely lost some of the thrill and "specialness" when I started getting comfortable with the Taycan and pushing it. There is no question that you feel the weight on the Taycan and the GT3 is obviously the better track machine, but since I've started riding motorcycles on track about 5 years ago, even the GT3 is not exciting on track comparatively. I decided the only way to "solve" this ridiculously first world issue that we are very fortunate to have, was to get a more powerful car that would scare me in a way the Taycan can't (McLaren 720S?) or a car with a 6-speed manual which is a completely different experience. I love solving a problem like this.
 

RG2020

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2020
Messages
156
Reaction score
110
Location
UK
Vehicles
Taycan 4S, Golf R Estate, Golf VR6, Corrado VR6
Country flag
I mostly agree, and if I had something such as a Huracan as a backup car I might feel more strongly about the difference between the two!

I think because my other cars are so different I still love bombing around in them, especially the mk3, but I don't do that very often.
Well, my Huracan has been my pride and joy in my collection. Always loved driving it during the summers here. Well, we had a nice day here in the pacific northwest so after running errands in the Taycan, I decided to grab lunch and took a spin in the Huracan....I must say, the Thrill is gone....I have gotten so used to instant torque that the Lambo was just not as fun as it used to be...the sound was still great and I loved the experience on the on ramp but Taycan has set such high standards. I am thoroughly confused now on what I like. Will have to see what happens this summer. Has anyone else had this experience. The taycan is just such a refined performance machine. Here is a pic of the cars side by side.
PXL_20210118_212013826 - Copy.jpg
Hmm I'm not sure, maybe if I could have a go in the Huracan I'll let you know!!

I agree on the whole it's very good, I don't have something such as a Huracan to compare it with. But I am choosing to drive my Mk3 Golf into work tomorrow and am looking forward to it, I still find it fun to bomb around in and it gives a different experience to the Taycan. Not that I'd particularly want to drive that slow, noisy thing every day now.
 

taycan_sportturismo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
46
Reaction score
41
Location
USA
Vehicles
2016 BMW 320i xDrive
If hydrogen was such a great succes we'd be driving FCEVs already.
This lobby is already 30 years old and can't even catch up with today's battery technology.
Only Toyota wants to have at least some of it's investments back...
Besides, why would car manufacturers invest billions in ev technology if FCEVs are the holy grail?
EVs have such great advantages in design, like space, weight distribution and simplicity of an electric drivetrain in compare to a complicated (and more dangerous) set-up of a FCEV.

Besides the high cost of infrastructure, there's another problem: production of hydrogen.
Why waste valuable energy while you can drive on that same energy directly??
It just doesn't make sense.

Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe.....only not on earth.
Making hydrogen is just destroying energy.
And for what?
Only to fill up as fast as petrol?
Besides, it's 3 times more expensive than electricity.
1 kg costs €10-15 (Grey H2).
1 kg is about 100 km in a FCEV.
That's the same as petrol.
The only way to produce hydrogen in large quantities at an acceptable efficiency is by MSR (Methane Steam Reforming), indeed, from natural gas and with large emissions of CO2 (Grey H2).
Blue H2 (with CO2 capture) is about €20-30/kg.
Green H2 (electrolyse) is about €40-50/kg.

We shouldn't want this.
Actually, I think hydrogen is the solution for decarbonizing the heavy industry (ships, trucks, planes, etc.). Batteries will need significant development before they'll be able to meet the energy density requirements to cover extreme long range without immense weight disadvantages.

Fuel cells, although more complicated to run, can reduce weight significantly by providing the "average" power needed over the course of a journey. I think the real power combo is a fuel cell hybrid electric vehicle (FCHEV) where the fuel cells work in tandem with a small battery pack, or even better, supercapacitor bank which will provide peak power for acceleration runs. The latter is also far more effective for energy recuperation because as we have seen, Taycans on the track can't recuperate for extended periods of time, or they overheat.

High temperature PEM fuel cells promise to solve the issues of complex support systems (balance-of-plant), expensive catalysts, and can accept lower quality hydrogen vs their low-temperature counterparts, but they require the development of their membranes to be reliable long-term.

Finally, I believe we can produce green hydrogen at scale by improving our electrolysis technology and making the process efficient. It won't reach the efficiency levels of just using the electricity straight from the source, but (and Cummins has claimed to have done this), if we can remove all the extra steps of compressing & cooling the hydrogen when refilling, I think we end up with an excellent alternative to BEVs and a great solution to decarbonize the heavy industry.
 

Dee

Well-Known Member
First Name
Dee
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
1,834
Reaction score
1,996
Location
The Netherlands
Vehicles
Yes.
Country flag
Actually, I think hydrogen is the solution for decarbonizing the heavy industry (ships, trucks, planes, etc.). Batteries will need significant development before they'll be able to meet the energy density requirements to cover extreme long range without immense weight disadvantages.

Fuel cells, although more complicated to run, can reduce weight significantly by providing the "average" power needed over the course of a journey. I think the real power combo is a fuel cell hybrid electric vehicle (FCHEV) where the fuel cells work in tandem with a small battery pack, or even better, supercapacitor bank which will provide peak power for acceleration runs. The latter is also far more effective for energy recuperation because as we have seen, Taycans on the track can't recuperate for extended periods of time, or they overheat.

High temperature PEM fuel cells promise to solve the issues of complex support systems (balance-of-plant), expensive catalysts, and can accept lower quality hydrogen vs their low-temperature counterparts, but they require the development of their membranes to be reliable long-term.

Finally, I believe we can produce green hydrogen at scale by improving our electrolysis technology and making the process efficient. It won't reach the efficiency levels of just using the electricity straight from the source, but (and Cummins has claimed to have done this), if we can remove all the extra steps of compressing & cooling the hydrogen when refilling, I think we end up with an excellent alternative to BEVs and a great solution to decarbonize the heavy industry.
Bringing this to the bare basics: the amount of energy needed for splitting H2O into H2 and O2 can't be done at a cost effective way.
That's just it.
You can't change nature's law.
This law is the same as thirty years ago.
It's not the will or technology but the cost.
 

daveo4EV

Well-Known Member
First Name
David
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Messages
2,248
Reaction score
3,543
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
Tesla(s), 911 GT3, Boxster S, Bolt, Taycan, Cayenn
Country flag
H2 is a fossil fuel play - with similar emissions - just shifted to the refining process from the consumption process…

the most abundant and efficient source for H2 is NOT water (it’s too expensive and chemically stable) - rather you use hydro-carbons (barrels of oil or methane/Natural Gas) - and you strip the Hydrogen from the hydro-carbon chains to “mine” H2…

the over all efficiency for this is low and the amount of electricity consumed is vast…electricity better used directly…

commercial scale H2 has like a 19% overall efficiency - start with 100 kWh of pure electricity - and you end up getting to use about 19% of the original 100 kwh to actually move a vehicle - vs. 65% or better for a BEV

I’d rather just keep the existing fossil fuel plays in place since they are a proven and evolved technology and the overall emissions are about hte same - also over time if some portion of the transportation industry transitions to BEV’s - then the remaining fossil fuel commercial vehicles remain but we make progress on the overall goal...

also H2 is extremely tricky/nasty to deal with and quite volatile - safe/effective/consumer-grade H2 fueling systems are elusive - and given that H2 reacts directly (and poorly) with normal air - the chances for embarassing interactions (i.e. consumers going ’boom’ during fueling) is actually quite high…

I remain dubious as to H2’s practical and scaled usage in future world transportation systems - but I welcome being proven wrong - but my bet is on better battery tech making this all quite irrelevant - a modest increase (foreseeable given current research results) in battery power densities and we’re looking at 600-750 lbs 150 kWh batteries - once you break the 800 lbs barrier for about 150 kWh of stored power that’s a game changer - because that means your BEV is now lighter than it’s equivalent ICE vehicle - with all the advantages of the EV - picture if the Taycan had all the power it has today - but was 500 lbs lighter than the Panamera - cause if you can do 150 kWh for 800 lbs worth of battery pack - we can do 75 kWh for 400 lbs battery pack

now things get really really interesting - and we’re not that far off…once you can go lighter you can either scale the pack up _OR_ down - and given lighter you need less kWh to go same distance…so it gets very very interesting.
 

taycan_sportturismo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
46
Reaction score
41
Location
USA
Vehicles
2016 BMW 320i xDrive
Bringing this to the bare basics: the amount of energy needed for splitting H2O into H2 and O2 can't be done at a cost effective way.
That's just it.
You can't change nature's law.
This law is the same as thirty years ago.
It's not the will or technology but the cost.
I see. Obviously there are theoretical limits to efficiency, but I want to see how close we can get to them. Besides, fuel cells are between 40-60% efficient already, and the best way to improve well-to-wheel efficiency is to generate hydrogen on-site, taking the transportation issue out of the equation. Granted, I still have lots of reading to do on the subject so I might be in for disappointment. But it's because of this notion that I want to follow through with this idea even more strongly.

As with all experimental technologies, there are chances to find breakthroughs that can enable us to, for example, achieve cost parity with gasoline or electric.
 
Advertisement

 
ZYRUS
Advertisement
Top