taycan_sportturismo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
46
Reaction score
41
Location
USA
Vehicles
2016 BMW 320i xDrive
H2 is a fossil fuel play - with similar emissions - just shifted to the refining process from the consumption process…

the most abundant and efficient source for H2 is NOT water (it’s too expensive and chemically stable) - rather you use hydro-carbons (barrels of oil or methane/Natural Gas) - and you strip the Hydrogen from the hydro-carbon chains to “mine” H2…

the over all efficiency for this is low and the amount of electricity consumed is vast…electricity better used directly…

commercial scale H2 has like a 19% overall efficiency - start with 100 kWh of pure electricity - and you end up getting to use about 19% of the original 100 kwh to actually move a vehicle - vs. 65% or better for a BEV

I’d rather just keep the existing fossil fuel plays in place since they are a proven and evolved technology and the overall emissions are about hte same - also over time if some portion of the transportation industry transitions to BEV’s - then the remaining fossil fuel commercial vehicles remain but we make progress on the overall goal...

also H2 is extremely tricky/nasty to deal with and quite volatile - safe/effective/consumer-grade H2 fueling systems are elusive - and given that H2 reacts directly (and poorly) with normal air - the chances for embarassing interactions (i.e. consumers going ’boom’ during fueling) is actually quite high…

I remain dubious as to H2’s practical and scaled usage in future world transportation systems - but I welcome being proven wrong - but my bet is on better battery tech making this all quite irrelevant - a modest increase (foreseeable given current research results) in battery power densities and we’re looking at 600-750 lbs 150 kWh batteries - once you break the 800 lbs barrier for about 150 kWh of stored power that’s a game changer - because that means your BEV is now lighter than it’s equivalent ICE vehicle - with all the advantages of the EV - picture if the Taycan had all the power it has today - but was 500 lbs lighter than the Panamera - cause if you can do 150 kWh for 800 lbs worth of battery pack - we can do 75 kWh for 400 lbs battery pack

now things get really really interesting - and we’re not that far off…once you can go lighter you can either scale the pack up _OR_ down - and given lighter you need less kWh to go same distance…so it gets very very interesting.
A common misconception about H2 is how safe it is (or isn't). Since it's such a light gas, it dissipates extremely quickly. It's only when there is a concentration of hydrogen in an enclosed area that the issue of ignition becomes significant. Otherwise, hydrogen doesn't behave as sensitively as most people would believe.

It is true that although hydrogen is the most abundant, it is very rare that it occurs by itself. And right now, Steam Methane Reforming is currently the most efficient way to generate Hydrogen gas. But it is not only 19% efficient. Most sources say 25-35% (but that's not anything to brag at, especially considering 65+% for BEVs). Again, I believe there's a way to achieve efficiency parity with BEVs, but we have to simplify the Hydrogen production process to get even close.

As for battery weights and total energy density, that's awesome that we're on track to reach such levels. But how quickly can we reach those levels? Batteries still have to go through the same development and testing process to make sure they're safe and reliable.

And one thing I want to throw out there is the issue of dealing with batteries after we have used them. One option is stationary power, but we have not found a sure-fire way of recycling them efficiently. The goal here for alternate fuels is to reduce our total carbon footprint, so we have to think of the entire picture. Other than their membranes, fuel cells are easily recyclable and won't contribute to end-of-life issues like batteries might.
Advertisement

 

Dee

Well-Known Member
First Name
Dee
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
1,834
Reaction score
1,996
Location
The Netherlands
Vehicles
Yes.
Country flag
MSR or SMR is used cuz we need H2 in the refining proces (fractioning of oil).
So there's a reason why MSR finds his legal existence.
If you are using H2 for FCEVs it's simply doesn't have a that legal existence cuz the alternative is 3 times cheaper.
For fractioning oil there isn't.
Besides, for MSR you need high pressure steam.
And how do we make steam?
Indeed, by burning natural gas (1st CO2).
Wait? What?
So you are using natural gas to make steam which reforms natural gas into H2? (2nd CO2).
Please read this sentence very carefully.
It just shows why making H2 for FCEVs is completely ridiculous.
Not only by destroying valuable (green) energy but also by the way you use fossil fuel for making H2 and CO2 twice.
We just shouldn't want this.
 
Last edited:

daveo4EV

Well-Known Member
First Name
David
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Messages
2,248
Reaction score
3,543
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
Tesla(s), 911 GT3, Boxster S, Bolt, Taycan, Cayenn
Country flag
tony-seba-Hydrogen-vs-EV.jpg


19 kWh usable power for transportation is the "right-hand" side of the H2 flow - liquidation vs. compression is the difference.
 

Dee

Well-Known Member
First Name
Dee
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
1,834
Reaction score
1,996
Location
The Netherlands
Vehicles
Yes.
Country flag
tony-seba-Hydrogen-vs-EV.jpg


19 kWh usable power for transportation is the "right-hand" side of the H2 flow - liquidation vs. compression is the difference.
Electrolysis isn't even near 75% efficiency.
It takes more energy to make it than H2 can carry.
Also, H2 produced by electrolysis needs additional refining to be 99,9% pure for making it even useable in fuel cells in the first place.
Driving on H2 looks like the holy grail in transportation but the production of H2 is far from that.
 

daveo4EV

Well-Known Member
First Name
David
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Messages
2,248
Reaction score
3,543
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
Tesla(s), 911 GT3, Boxster S, Bolt, Taycan, Cayenn
Country flag
Electrolysis isn't even near 75% efficiency.
It takes more energy to make it than H2 can carry.
Also, H2 produced by electrolysis needs additional refining to be 99,9% pure for making it even useable in fuel cells in the first place.
Driving on H2 looks like the holy grail in transportation but the production of H2 is far from that.
the chart is pretty damming even with the wrong H2 assumptions - if you include realistic H2 production assumptions it only gets worse for H2…

I think a BEV "mix" with continued reliance/improvement in existing ICE fossil fuels for commercial transportation offers a great way forward - reduce the "stupid" usage (people sitting in idle cars burning hydro-carbon) "keep" the efficient hard to replace use cases -there is very little in the world more efficient/cheaper than a fully loaded semi-truck and push for improvements in efficiency and emissions controls...

it doesn't have to be all or nothing folks - we'll chip away at the problem from multiple angles.
 

andyd

Well-Known Member
First Name
Andy
Joined
Sep 9, 2020
Messages
108
Reaction score
31
Location
UK
Vehicles
Taycan 4S, Mclaren 570GT, Cayenne
Country flag
I've used the missus Cayenne all day today and it feels so slow!
The violence of the acceleration and the noise in my Mclaren will take some replacing but even these types of car will be electric soon.
I used to really want a Urus as a day car but I can't imagine going back to petrol after having the Taycan. Its brilliant and although the range is poor, I only do 12 miles round trip to work so it really doesn't matter and there aren't many places further than 170 miles I'd ever need to go in the UK.

Well, my Huracan has been my pride and joy in my collection. Always loved driving it during the summers here. Well, we had a nice day here in the pacific northwest so after running errands in the Taycan, I decided to grab lunch and took a spin in the Huracan....I must say, the Thrill is gone....I have gotten so used to instant torque that the Lambo was just not as fun as it used to be...the sound was still great and I loved the experience on the on ramp but Taycan has set such high standards. I am thoroughly confused now on what I like. Will have to see what happens this summer. Has anyone else had this experience. The taycan is just such a refined performance machine. Here is a pic of the cars side by side.
PXL_20210118_212013826 - Copy.jpg
 

Dee

Well-Known Member
First Name
Dee
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
1,834
Reaction score
1,996
Location
The Netherlands
Vehicles
Yes.
Country flag
the chart is pretty damming even with the wrong H2 assumptions - if you include realistic H2 production assumptions it only gets worse for H2…

I think a BEV "mix" with continued reliance/improvement in existing ICE fossil fuels for commercial transportation offers a great way forward - reduce the "stupid" usage (people sitting in idle cars burning hydro-carbon) "keep" the efficient hard to replace use cases -there is very little in the world more efficient/cheaper than a fully loaded semi-truck and push for improvements in efficiency and emissions controls...

it doesn't have to be all or nothing folks - we'll chip away at the problem from multiple angles.
Agree on the mix cuz we will never be able to ban fossil fuels and it's ok.
We should just accept it can't be done (or make it worse trying to produce H2).
Imagining the CO2 doesn't have that of an impact of which we are all so afraid of...
But we just agreed it does and that's why we are having this discussion.
 
Last edited:

daveo4EV

Well-Known Member
First Name
David
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Messages
2,248
Reaction score
3,543
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
Tesla(s), 911 GT3, Boxster S, Bolt, Taycan, Cayenn
Country flag
I'm a big fan of proper tool for the proper job
  • EV daily drivers - slam dunk win move emissions away from congested city centers
  • GT3 w/flat-6 for sports car and track duty
  • Hybrid ultra-efficient BEV+ICE engines for commercial use cases where full BEV is challenging given the use case
    • yes rail can go in here as well and it already super efficient
  • local delivers with fixed routes can probably go to BEV
  • ICE continued use with modern efficiencies for undeveloped areas where electrification is challenging and not worth while (rally's, off road, vast swaths of un-populated lands)
that sort of mix would dramatically change our emission profile and hydro-carbon consumption models using the best tool for the job but not throwing away over 100 years of ICE progress is equally stupid in my opinion - but modifying it's usage for circumstances that require and benefit from it's unique talents is an efficient use of resources…image if we could get the LA basin to be mostly BEV's for personal transportation

if that were to happen one might not care about the continued use of hybrid-ICE commercial vehicles…but air quality would get better - we know this from the pandemic - personal usage is down (no one driving their cars) but transportation is the same or up - result overall improvement in air quality and reduced macro fuel consumption…

we need to stop thinking in terms of all or nothing for all things (true in so many parts of our society these days) - there is room for a mix of solution each tuned to it's needs and capabilities...

a BEV with fast charging is a nearly perfect daily driver…ICE as this thread shows are weak when compared to this use case…
 
OP
OP
Lowpue

Lowpue

Active Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2020
Messages
33
Reaction score
59
Location
Puget Sound
Vehicles
1967 912, 1995 911, 2000 911, 2001 Boxster, 2002 911 4S, 2014 TurboS, 2015 Huracan, TTS ordered
Country flag
As someone that has a team that focuses on the energy generation technologies....remember when wind was thought to never be able to compete and now the marginal cost of wind generation is zero driving electricity costs down. I would argue that if you base all your assumption on what you know today, you will likely be wrong. I think at some point the world will truly externalize the costs associated with fossil fuels as the urgency of climate increases, many will be caught with their pants down with dated technology. Glad I am older and I wont be around for the fossil fuelless world of the future....i grew up with a passion for ICE engines....but I think the combustion engines may die sooner than we think....This is on my mind as I have begun selling some of my ICE cars. I also think that batteries powered EVs are a bridge to something else....

remember, unitl I bought my taycan, I never could imagine buying an electric. Look at the cars I have right now in my signature....I am at a crossroads....I am so confused :)
 

LonePalmBJ

Well-Known Member
First Name
Brent
Joined
Feb 17, 2020
Messages
233
Reaction score
408
Location
Roswell, Georgia
Vehicles
2020 Taycan 4S in Gentian Blue Metallic, Black/Chalk, 2014 BMW i3, 1993 Jeep Grand Cherokee, 1965 VW Type I. Past: 2012 Fisker Karma
Country flag
And one thing I want to throw out there is the issue of dealing with batteries after we have used them. One option is stationary power, but we have not found a sure-fire way of recycling them efficiently. The goal here for alternate fuels is to reduce our total carbon footprint, so we have to think of the entire picture. Other than their membranes, fuel cells are easily recyclable and won't contribute to end-of-life issues like batteries might.
There's an oft-repeated misconception that EV batteries can't be technically or economically recycled; while this may have once been true this is simply no longer the case. There are multiple academic and commercial ventures in this space now, and the EU already has a mandate requiring recycling of 50% of batteries by weight. Here's one of many recent advances on the subject:

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/fortum-solution-recycles-80-of-li-ion-battery-material/
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dee

Dee

Well-Known Member
First Name
Dee
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
1,834
Reaction score
1,996
Location
The Netherlands
Vehicles
Yes.
Country flag
These are just exciting times, just like the first cars appeared.
We are reliving that exact same era.
I'm glad I'm young enough to see the new generation of cars where the iconic (ice) cars of the past will never leave my mind!
Bring it on!
 

taycan_sportturismo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
46
Reaction score
41
Location
USA
Vehicles
2016 BMW 320i xDrive
There's an oft-repeated misconception that EV batteries can't be technically or economically recycled; while this may have once been true this is simply no longer the case. There are multiple academic and commercial ventures in this space now, and the EU already has a mandate requiring recycling of 50% of batteries by weight. Here's one of many recent advances on the subject:

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/fortum-solution-recycles-80-of-li-ion-battery-material/
I've actually read about this exact technique! It's great that people have solved the problem, but it will take time to achieve widespread implementation. However, that's not to say it doesn't help further the case for batteries.

Dee, in response to your comment about H2 generation using SMR, my plan is to refine the electrolysis process in order to achieve overall efficiency parity with BEVs. Obviously, there is no way the process can get right up to BEVs in terms of generation, since the energy is being routed from electrons to hydrogen back to electrons. The Laws of Thermodynamics state that you can only get as much in as you get out. However, the idea here is to make the laws of nature work in our favor. Of course, I have no clue how that will be achieved, but I think it can.

Plus, since electricity is the driving source for green hydrogen, we could put up a couple charging stations while we're at it. This leads perfectly into daveo4EV's point that yes, we will have many options in the future! We should not go all-in or nothing since that won't be practical for reducing overall emissions.

One idea I had was to remove the transportation of hydrogen from the equation, thus improving overall efficiency by that much. I bet when hydrogen is generated on-site, the process can be optimized to be as efficient as possible.

And, if you ask me, FCHEVs are the perfect tool for the job since they mix the best aspects of each technology. Supercapacitor banks are perfect for energy recuperation and delivery while the fuel cell provides for average needs.

Finally, coming back to the idea of a variety of options, fuel cells can contribute to that idea by easing the transition to clean energy. Of course, they can become an alternative to BEVs. But they also work very well for supporting the electricity grid and smoothing the peaks and troughs of power requirements. One issue with clean energy can be inconsistent generation, or when power generation is higher than demand.

When those things happen, there's no where for the extra energy to go or anything to provide during the low-generation hours. Fuel cells are perfect for providing extra energy, and when there's too much energy, it can be used to generate hydrogen for fuel cells.
 

feye

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2019
Messages
1,600
Reaction score
1,174
Location
Shenzhen
Vehicles
Porsche Taycan 4S+ 2020
Country flag
I've got to agree that for daily driving, the Taycan is impossible to beat. The instant response is addicting and basically ruins you for any other car. The handling is superb up to 9/10ths, but boy is this a heavy mother!!:oops: Diving into a turn at speed is scary because it just carries so much weight.
But then my Taycan goes around corners much faster than my Audi A7.

Have you raced your TS?
 
Advertisement

 
ZYRUS
Advertisement
Top