If true… "The coming EV batteries will sweep away fossil fuel transport, with or without net zero"

[daveo4EV]

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/coming-ev-batteries-sweep-away-140709581.html

it's long been my contention the only problem with EV's is battery weight (but current LiON technology is an acceptable but suboptimal trade off) - and future batteries would drive weight down to below equivalent ICE vehicles - at which point even die hard petrol heads will have concede defeat - batteries are also high modular and can probably be retrofitted into existing designs

now I've been in tech long enough to know that what works in a lab can take decades (or more) to reach production - but still I thought I'd post this.

article states lab has reached .675 kWh/Kg - that means a 94 kWh would be about 140 kg or about 300 lbs - Taycan is currently about 2.7 mile/kWh vehicle but some of that would be due to weight - lower weight would increase Taycan's range - let's say you get to 3.1 miles/kWh due to lower weight - that means you could either lower the total kWh and lower weight even more - or increase range but not use all the "weight budget"...

in any case betting on this stuff is like betting on lottery numbers and I am under NO DELUSIONS that this article means we're soon to have 100 kwH batteries in production for less than 400 lbs - but it's promising none the less and we'll keep chipping away at the problem.

I simply found it interesting and thought I would share…

Sponsored

 

[Teufel Hund]

Thanks for sharing. It will definitely be interesting to see how battery tech will evolve over the coming years and decades. I’m guessing that in 20-30 years people will be looking back at our current tech and capacities and get a good laugh

 

[j.w.s]

Increased energy density is definitely in the cards over the next 5-10 years, and will make for even better EVs. That said, I don't forsee any 400lb 93Kwh packs any time soon.

The entire Taycan battery pack weighs 630kg / 1,389lbs (1). The pack consists of 396 LG Chem pouch cells (1). Each cell weighs 897g / 1.978lbs (2) so that's a total battery weight of 355kg / 783lbs. The batteries themselves are just half of the total battery pack weight. The rest of the battery pack is strength, cooling, packaging, and wiring.

We can imagine a battery chemistry like you linked to that would reduce the battery weight from the current 897lbs to say 300lbs - a huge drop in weight. Add in a packaging / wiring of say 300lbs instead of the current 600lbs and you get a total pack pack weight of 600lbs. That would be less than half the current total pack weight, and would be pretty darn awesome - but still much more than 300lbs.

But would any of us complain about a Taycan that weighs 800lbs less than the current model? Certainly not!


(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_Taycan
(2) https://www.batemo.de/products/batemo-cell-library/lg-chem-e66a/

 

[philbur]

The taycan weighs as much as the cayenne - same footprint, just lower - people are surprised that its not more sometimes. The packaging is a good point - lots of opportunity there and building the cells into the structure of the car like Telsa is starting to do.

 

[daveo4EV]

Increased energy density is definitely in the cards over the next 5-10 years, and will make for even better EVs. That said, I don't forsee any 400lb 93Kwh packs any time soon.

The entire Taycan battery pack weighs 630kg / 1,389lbs (1). The pack consists of 396 LG Chem pouch cells (1). Each cell weighs 897g / 1.978lbs (2) so that's a total battery weight of 355kg / 783lbs. The batteries themselves are just half of the total battery pack weight. The rest of the battery pack is strength, cooling, packaging, and wiring.

We can imagine a battery chemistry like you linked to that would reduce the battery weight from the current 897lbs to say 300lbs - a huge drop in weight. Add in a packaging / wiring of say 300lbs instead of the current 600lbs and you get a total pack pack weight of 600lbs. That would be less than half the current total pack weight, and would be pretty darn awesome - but still much more than 300lbs.

But would any of us complain about a Taycan that weighs 800lbs less than the current model? Certainly not!


(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_Taycan
(2) https://www.batemo.de/products/batemo-cell-library/lg-chem-e66a/

thanks for this analysis - I was just spit balling - in any case I'm hoping we'll have 800 HP EV's that weight 500 lbs less than equivalent ICE vehicle's and it would be awesome - no one knows what cooling requirements would be for the new batteries, so maybe there is savings on packaging and battery support hardware???

but I 100% understand and get your point - but this sort of tech shows a potential future which is positive in my opinion.

 

[kempez]

I hope we do manage to drop weight in batteries significantly. But as above a lot of the weight - in modern cars in general, not just EV’s…is in the strengthening. A lot of journo’s talk about the Taycan as if it’s an absolute beast, but how much heavier is it than the Panamera? 200kgs? Now this is a decent amount, but it’s not crazy heavier.
I definitely welcome lighter EV’s and I’m sure they will come. I’d love it to be 5 years away but realistically it seems more 8-10 years away

 

[f1eng]

I hope we do manage to drop weight in batteries significantly. But as above a lot of the weight - in modern cars in general, not just EV’s…is in the strengthening. A lot of journo’s talk about the Taycan as if it’s an absolute beast, but how much heavier is it than the Panamera? 200kgs? Now this is a decent amount, but it’s not crazy heavier.
I definitely welcome lighter EV’s and I’m sure they will come. I’d love it to be 5 years away but realistically it seems more 8-10 years away

I considered a Panamera plug in hybrid ST back in 2018 and it weighed about the same as the Taycan.
I ended up preferring the plug in Prius, on balance 600kg lighter and easier to park but not as quick…

 

[kempez]

I considered a Panamera plug in hybrid ST back in 2018 and it weighed about the same as the Taycan.
I ended up preferring the plug in Prius, on balance 600kg lighter and easier to park but not as quick…

Yeah this is it. It’s a heavy car for sure, but overstated when you look at competitive stats. To be fair too: the new Prius is a nice looking car!

 

[f1eng]

Yeah this is it. It’s a heavy car for sure, but overstated when you look at competitive stats. To be fair too: the new Prius is a nice looking car!

I was looking for a plug in hybrid car with space for my dog.
There aren’t many, most are SUVs and all of them are very heavy and hideous IMO.
The Prius hasn’t as much grip or acceleration as the Panamera but handles nicely on its all round wishbone suspension, is a lot narrower than the Panamera and 600kg lighter and goes about twice as far on the same amount of leccy. The Porsche simply wasn’t worth the asking price IMO, particularly since getting its spec to match the standard Prius added £10k making it almost 4x more expensive.
From a technical pov the Prius has the lightest cleverest hybrid solution IMO which is patented.

I am keeping the Prius until the Taycan has proved its reliability and I have managed to park iIt everywhere I need to!

 

[TXAG]

It's a win-win if/when mass-produced -- improved performance with the same kWh and less weight, and more range for the non-Porsche EV drivers who want more battery at today's weight.

 

[Jrkennedy37]

I hope we do manage to drop weight in batteries significantly. But as above a lot of the weight - in modern cars in general, not just EV’s…is in the strengthening. A lot of journo’s talk about the Taycan as if it’s an absolute beast, but how much heavier is it than the Panamera? 200kgs? Now this is a decent amount, but it’s not crazy heavier.
I definitely welcome lighter EV’s and I’m sure they will come. I’d love it to be 5 years away but realistically it seems more 8-10 years away

My ‘18 4S ST (not hybrid) is over 400kg lighter than our ‘21 CT4. I specifically chose the non-ehybrid due to weight and less complexity with the hybrid system. The Taycan “feels” like it handles better due to the lower CoG, until you get to braking. The lighter Panamera induces much more confidence and the stopping distance has to be a few feet shorter, which I attribute to the weight difference.

 

[j.w.s]

The taycan weighs as much as the cayenne - same footprint, just lower - people are surprised that its not more sometimes. The packaging is a good point - lots of opportunity there and building the cells into the structure of the car like Telsa is starting to do.

Well the weights do seem to be surprisingly close. I found the Taycan Turbo S curb weight to be 5,101 lbs ( https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/taycan/taycan-models/taycan-turbo-s/ ) while the Cayenne Turbo is 5,056 lbs - or up to 5,673 for the hybrid. Well that's a surprise.

The Panamara Turbo S weights in at 4,691 lbs (lighter than a Taycan by 410 lbs, but not exactly light) while the Panamara Turbo S e-hybrid at 5,280lbs is heavier than a Taycan. So Porsche EVs are super heavy, but then again apparently so are other Porsche sedans and SUVs.

Now it's 3,433 lbs for the current 911 GTS PDK, a massive 1,668 lbs lighter than a Taycan, which should not be a surprise. Makes me wonder what the Cayman EV is going to weigh (3,500 lbs like the prototype?) and how they plan to shed that much weight.

 

[philbur]

Well the weights do seem to be surprisingly close. I found the Taycan Turbo S curb weight to be 5,101 lbs ( https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/taycan/taycan-models/taycan-turbo-s/ ) while the Cayenne Turbo is 5,056 lbs - or up to 5,673 for the hybrid. Well that's a surprise.

The Panamara Turbo S weights in at 4,691 lbs (lighter than a Taycan by 410 lbs, but not exactly light) while the Panamara Turbo S e-hybrid at 5,280lbs is heavier than a Taycan. So Porsche EVs are super heavy, but then again apparently so are other Porsche sedans and SUVs.

I think modern cars are just heavy - no matter what the power delivery is - ICE, Hybrid, EV

 

[Jrkennedy37]

I think modern cars are just heavy - no matter what the power delivery is - ICE, Hybrid, EV

Amen.

Within the EV space, one fascinating thing is how much lighter a model 3 is compared to a Taycan (about 1,000lbs lighter for performance model). Yes, the battery is 10kwh smaller and there is less insulation and interior finish outs, but the weight difference and related efficiency blows away the Taycan. All-in-all, this should be the formula short term until major innovation in the battery space arrives.

 

[Mr.Smith]

Amen.

Within the EV space, one fascinating thing is how much lighter a model 3 is compared to a Taycan (about 1,000lbs lighter for performance model). Yes, the battery is 10kwh smaller and there is less insulation and interior finish outs, but the weight difference and related efficiency blows away the Taycan. All-in-all, this should be the formula short term until major innovation in the battery space arrives.

What revolutionary materials or technology are used to create such weight savings?

Sponsored