Judder from tyres when cold

[sbarker108]

Having researched this a little, it is apparently a thing but having owned multiple relatively high performance vehicles this is a new one for me and I wanted to see if anyone else has the issue.

So, Taycan Turbo S, 21" wheels. I noticed when it started getting colder that turning sharply, not even full lock, at slow speeds causes the tyres to judder as if they are losing grip and skipping. According to Google, this happens on lots of Porsches and is due to the wide tyres and it being cold so they deform less (someone also mentioned some engineering term that I've forgotten). Now the fronts are 265s but my M5 also had 265s albeit on 20" wheels and that never did it. They both had/have summer tyres.

Does anyone else get this in colder climates? I'm in the UK and it's around 3 degrees Celsius now so I appreciate not that cold compared to some folks out there.

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[AllanG]

This is known as the Ackermann effect, which is where the inner wheel in a turn describes a smaller radius than the outer. If you imagine a tyre on a full lock, and a number of lines on the circumference from inner to outer, the sections of tyre travel a different distance during the turn. Something has to give and the tread blocks slip/judder to compensate which, as mentioned above, is more noticeable when the rubber is cold and less flexible. That's my understanding anyway!

It affects most cars, not just Porsche, and is most noticeable on one’s that have wide tyre profiles.

 

[gb96]

Yes, quite "normal" when it's cold. Have had this on Panameras, a modern (2023) Taycan and expect it to happen on extreme lock on my current 2020 Taycan Turbo.

 

[sbarker108]

Thanks for your replies chaps, sets my mind at rest.

 

[O2TheL]

Yep, happens on all wide-tyres with sport tread.

 

[ShiftyWolf]

Thanks for your replies chaps, sets my mind at rest.

Yes but...
If they are summer tires most manufacturers recommend you not drive them in weather below *edit* 40-45 degF / 4-7 degC due to the compound hardening and risk of damaging the tire. Just something to think about.

 

[f1eng]

Yes but...
If they are summer tires most manufacturers recommend you not drive them in weather below *edit* 40-45 degF / 4-7 degC due to the compound hardening and risk of damaging the tire. Just something to think about.

I have never heard the story about risk of tyre damage at low temperature, though I do use winter tyres.

 

[ShiftyWolf]

I have never heard the story about risk of tyre damage at low temperature, though I do use winter tyres.

Quick search brings up a lot from different tire manufacturers. Here's what Continental says: Summer tires in cold weather. While risk of catastrophic failure may not be high, the tire performance drops off dramatically.

I've read an actual test of summers, all season, and winters in cold and snow a couple years ago but can't find it in just my short online search today.

 

[Talisker]

Having researched this a little, it is apparently a thing but having owned multiple relatively high performance vehicles this is a new one for me and I wanted to see if anyone else has the issue.

So, Taycan Turbo S, 21" wheels. I noticed when it started getting colder that turning sharply, not even full lock, at slow speeds causes the tyres to judder as if they are losing grip and skipping. According to Google, this happens on lots of Porsches and is due to the wide tyres and it being cold so they deform less (someone also mentioned some engineering term that I've forgotten). Now the fronts are 265s but my M5 also had 265s albeit on 20" wheels and that never did it. They both had/have summer tyres.

Does anyone else get this in colder climates? I'm in the UK and it's around 3 degrees Celsius now so I appreciate not that cold compared to some folks out there.

I’ve had it on several 911s, Taycan Turbo and now Taycan Turbo S. it is disconcerting at first

 

[DexD]

My wife's BMW 840d X-Drive on 20's does the same thing- just minimize lock when the tyres are cold

 

[Dabz]

This really sets my mind at rest, it’s a very odd feeling!

 

[W1NGE]

Having researched this a little, it is apparently a thing but having owned multiple relatively high performance vehicles this is a new one for me and I wanted to see if anyone else has the issue.

So, Taycan Turbo S, 21" wheels. I noticed when it started getting colder that turning sharply, not even full lock, at slow speeds causes the tyres to judder as if they are losing grip and skipping. According to Google, this happens on lots of Porsches and is due to the wide tyres and it being cold so they deform less (someone also mentioned some engineering term that I've forgotten). Now the fronts are 265s but my M5 also had 265s albeit on 20" wheels and that never did it. They both had/have summer tyres.

Does anyone else get this in colder climates? I'm in the UK and it's around 3 degrees Celsius now so I appreciate not that cold compared to some folks out there.

Perfectly normal (my Boxster did it for 12 years) and is due to the low profile tyres and the camber of the wheels - not enough rubber on the road surface when turning at manoeuvring speeds. More noticeable when cold outside.

 

[f1eng]

Yep, happens on all wide-tyres with sport tread.

Particularly when below their good working temperature and they have lost grip.

The steering geometry will be optimised for cornering so no sports car uses true Akermann steering. That is theoretically OK at low speed (and would therefore avoid this effect) but in real world cornering the optimum slip angle is different for outside and inside tyre because of the different vertical load and the steering geometry is chosen by the designer to optimise cornering grip - or it is for racing.

Maybe a compromise is chosen on road cars depending on limo or sporty but I've never designed one so don't know.

 

[Leverage]

Yes it's normal like everyone said already. But I can only suggest you to switch to winter tires now that it's freezing. Summer tire are very soft and harden when it's freezing. You will lose grip while accelerating & add distance when hard braking.

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