Key Fob Cloned - Car Broken Into

batteredhaddock

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That RR article didn't age well...

Really, this is the outcome of human nature. You will never eliminate crime. If someone wants to steal something, they will.

All technology does is alters how we interact with our environment.

With older cars, if someone wanted to steal it, they smashed the window to gain entry, then wired the car. Car stolen.

With newer cars, that same criminal uses a computer to gain entry, a computer to start the car. Car stolen.

It's nothing new, other than the interaction with your vehicle.
For sure, I’m reading your reply as effectively being in agreement with my commentary. Old world or new, all we can do is make sure our vehicles aren’t the lowest hanging fruit.
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tigerbalm

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This thread is making me appreciate that I park in a 300+ car underground garage under my apartment block that makes associating a space with a property quite difficult – and I think replay attacks virtually impossible.
 

tigerbalm

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We keep our car keys in a faraday cage - it's just a box that means I can find my keys easily anyway
What's the risk of a replay attack happening when someone is out and about? Like sitting in a cafe with car parked around the corner? Has that happened in real world, or is it mostly happening outside homes?
 

Fish Fingers

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New Taycan option for MY 2024, Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur faraday key fob biscuit tin:

1659012521195.png



Price: £324
Belt and braces....
Remember to put the key in the Faraday pouch then into the biscuit tin and finally into the microwave oven last thing at night.
😁
 

kempez

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What's the risk of a replay attack happening when someone is out and about? Like sitting in a cafe with car parked around the corner? Has that happened in real world, or is it mostly happening outside homes?
It might be a bit obvious if they are. I don't know if it's unheard of, but you'd need to carry kit around to do it. https://ivanorsolic.github.io/post/car-hacking/
 


TaycanHero

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Belt and braces....
Remember to put the key in the Faraday pouch then into the biscuit tin and finally into the microwave oven last thing at night.
😁
You missed the final step: toss out your fridge freezer shelves, then dump the microwave into said appliance. Shut door.

We know from Hollywood it's highly effective against nuclear attacks, so presumably effective against a criminal's keyless entry attack.

Porsche Taycan Key Fob Cloned - Car Broken Into 1659021464305
 

Tooney

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Regarding your second point, I think it’s another generalization. Are you referring to the Taycan specifically, or all cars? I made a similar ‘never say never’ point in an earlier post, but I would say that owners who have Comfort Access disabled or not optioned specifically on the Taycan are safe from the risk of a relay attack to unlock the car. And per the Thatchwell report linked earlier, clone and replay are already covered.
If your Taycan has comfort access but you disable comfort access in the PCM, does that affect the key fob emissions?

If comfort access is disabled, does the key fob only send a signal when a button on the fob is pressed, or is it still broadcasting repeatedly as if comfort access was enabled?

For these electronic attacks with comfort access, is the signal captured to unlock the car the same signal used to start the car?
 


satchurator

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If your Taycan has comfort access but you disable comfort access in the PCM, does that affect the key fob emissions?
If comfort access is disabled, does the key fob only send a signal when a button on the fob is pressed, or is it still broadcasting repeatedly as if comfort access was enabled?
I don't know, but that is knowable. Most likely the key continues to chirp away and is simply ignored by the car if Comfort Access is disabled. [Edit] Apparently the fob has a motion sensor which allows the fob to 'sleep', limiting the proximity signal and conserving battery.

I doubt it, but perhaps Comfort Access uses a protocol of mutual proximity. NFC devices do that: an NFC reader emits an extremely short proximity signal that activates the device's identity signal. Security nerds: yes that can be compromised too. Its turtles all the way down.

For these electronic attacks with comfort access, is the signal captured to unlock the car the same signal used to start the car?
No. Each button on the fob is distinct; and the fob's proximity signal is distinct from those too. How else could chorded multi-button presses work? (related tip: you can temporarily disable Comfort Access by pressing door open and door close on the fob simultaneously).

IMO if Comfort Access is disabled, even if the key continues emitting proximity chirps, both replay and relay attacks are mitigated based on our current understanding of the implementation.
 
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Archimedes

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Two things to add with regards to relay theft.

Not sure about faraday boxes but over time faraday pouches FAIL!. Please routinely check them. Better to keep the keys in a pouch with the pouch in a biscuit tin.
How would a Faraday pouch fail unless you damaged it? It’s a physical barrier, not a coating that wears off. If you use it properly it should not fail. Unless it was defective from the start.
 

Docjonday

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Just to add some further perspective from the UK….

Last month, my neighbour’s Mercedes’ recently new estate vehicle was stolen in dawn twilight at around 4am by a 2 man gang. The whole episode was caught on my CCTV (happy to post if anyone would like to see). Both the speed and brazenness were breathtaking. Their scanner device seemed to be confined to something around cellphone sized. Prior to gaining access to the Mercedes, they gained entry into another neighbour’s Volvo SUV, but couldn’t get that vehicle to start. Thankfully, they ignored my Taycan parked adjacent to the Mercedes. The police seemed very disinterested, with only a civil service call handler being involved (which goes to explain 84% of car thefts in England going unsolved). The stolen car was never recovered.

My understanding is that the Taycan key fob features an accelerometer (similar to a cellphone), which has to be activated by movement to cause the key to transmit. That prevents the need for a Faraday box if the key is stationary. However, there remains the risk that gangs sit in wait, scan your key fob when you deploy it and then lie in wait. Echoing what another forum member said, if thieves are determined, they typically succeed. They typically have much less to lose than the victim.

I remain all too aware of visiting a Porsche dealership a decade ago for a service. I witnessed a gentleman in his 60’s that day with a head wound, together with his daughter, a result of him being attacked by thieves in his own home intent on taking his Porsche, who had stolen his keys. It made me aware of the risks of Porsche ownership. However, to echo another comment already made, to let criminals dictate your life choices is to let them win. Most of us here I suspect consider that a non-option.

My own advice - deterrence is key. Have CCTV. Don’t option Comfort Access pre or post production. And get a Doberman! They’re great company, (keeping me warm as I write this :) ), and have ears more sensitive than the CCTV sensors. She also makes for a visible deterrent. While great around the family, she’d bite the cajones off anyone she thought posed a threat to us! Of course, a dog can still be attacked, but deterrence is a powerful tool. Particularly here in the UK at present, where I suspect crime will get worse before it gets better until police forces take a zero tolerance approach (which I note is starting to pay dividends in Manchester recently under new police leadership).

Which reminds me, has anyone experience of transporting a big dog in a Taycan Sport Tourismo? Now my Doberman’s fully grown, she no longer fits in my Taycan saloon and I prefer an all rounder for a daily. :)
 

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Agree with above, but would also add....get Cctv which can alert you when a person is detected (eg Ring). Set it up like that at night.

Get decent home locks!
If you have euro locks swap them out for anti snap/anti bump/anti pick locks.
Euro locks can be snapped in seconds.

And keep your keys hidden from outside, but not upstairs in the bedroom.

.... Doesn't always work though. They thought I had the keys in our bedroom when we got done and they smashed the bedroom door off its frame (I was holding it shut).

But I don't think Taycans are currently favoured by crims to steal 🤞
I think the tech may put them off and it's hard to sell parts for a unique car.

I assume BMW Ms / Audi RS/S Merc AMG / Golf R etc are still the target market.
 

Brian Fulton

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So sorry to hear about this, @aromillo , and I hope it never happens to you again (especially in your new GTS!) or to any of us. It's a good reminder to keep valuables out of the car, or at least out of sight when visiting multiple shops consecutively.

FWIW, I use a
fine knife and carefully cut out my home address from any paperwork that I keep in any of my vehicles. And I don't use the HOME function. That way, a thief can't find my home and open my overhead garage door after stealing my vehicle. If a police officer complains that the address is cut out on my registration (hasn't happened yet), I will explain why and ask him or her to match the VIN on the registration slip with the VIN on the vehicle. Gotta safely stay one step ahead of the thieves ...
That's really a smart move by you. Gonna apply it
 

G7SUM

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Sorry to hear this OP, but glad you are ok. 👍

Comfort access is not popular in the UK due to the massive amount of relay thefts nowadays.

But, it all depends to what extent the crims will go.

If they really want your car bad enough, they will just break into your house for the keys, like they did with us (Golf R32 and Mini Cooper S) many years ago.

Trust me, its no fun fighting an armed gang in your bedroom at 3am on a Monday morning!
Sadly there's a marked increase in car thefts, fueled by a lack of supply, parts and need.

I predict this will increase over the winter months as the energy prices rocket once again.

Keep the key in a Faraday pouch which costs around £5.
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