Observed Behavior: North American 2020 Taycan has max 11 kW L2 charger (48 amps) not max 9.6 kW (40 amps)

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daveo4EV

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FOR North America NO - it's been demonstrated that in Europe the 22 kW charging option is a great choice due to a large number of 22 kW public charging options…

I would not have optioned the bigger charger - it's basically useless away from home - the _ONLY_ reason to get the bigger charger IMHO is/are:
  1. you know there is one you'd use away from home
  2. you often drive more than 200 miles in a day and the 4 hour charge time is useful for you
my experience the past 7 years is that when you're away from home - you are using 1 of 4 common choices:
  1. FastDC charging
  2. NEMA 14-50
  3. 32 amp or worse EV charger
  4. what ever the hotel has available - and it's not often all that good
I've rarely found _ANY_ charger away from home that is more than 32 amps - notable exceptions are:
  1. 64 amp charge rate at hotel in Ashland Oregon - Tesla Wall Charger
  2. Sea Scape Resort, Aptos, CA (80 amps in the garage) - Tesla Wall Charge
  3. 70 amp charger in the parking garage in Downtown San Luis Obispo - no name J-1772 charger
  4. 48 amp chargers on the Lewis & Clark Campus outside Portland Oregon - Tesla Wall Charger
if you're getting the 19.2 kW option for North America I will assert you are doing so to improve your home charging situation - because you ain't finding one of those suckers in the wild all that often.
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ClipperCreek's Share2® enabled HCS-80 bundle allows charging station owners to install two 64A, Level 2 charging stations on one 80A circuit. The Share2 is an inexpensive solution for any location looking for an easy way to double the number of charge points without running additional 240V circuits. The Share2 enabled HCS-80 will offer full power if one vehicle is requesting a charge and automatically splits the power if a second vehicle requests a charge at the same time. When one of the vehicles completes charging, the other station reverts to full power for the second vehicle.

The Share2® enabled HCS-80 has ClipperCreek’s standard best in class product features, including a three year warranty, a fully sealed, rugged NEMA 4 enclosure, 25 feet of charge cable, and a separate, low profile wall mount connector holster. Works with all plug-in vehicles including the Chevy Volt, Nissan Leaf, Fiat 500e, BMW i3, Kia Soul, Ford C Max, etc. For a complete list of all current electric vehicles and the approximate time to charge from empty to full with a variety of ClipperCreek charging stations, please visit https://www.clippercreek.com/charging-times-chart
https://www.clippercreek.com/charging-times-chart
 

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Thanks @daveo4EV

Very helpful input - agreed the only reason I would get it is to charge at home. Also agreed - while 4 hour charging at home is nice to have it would be rare I would need it.

After mulling it over I think I will go with the simple solution - i.e. skip the 22 kw option and go with the HCS-60 Clipper Creek and have a Separate 60 Amp (48 Amp usable) circuit run.

Thanks again for the discussion - much appreciated. And hopefully helpful to others as well :)

-Bruce
 
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Thanks @daveo4EV

Very helpful input - agreed the only reason I would get it is to charge at home. Also agreed - while 4 hour charging at home is nice to have it would be rare I would need it.

After mulling it over I think I will go with the simple solution - i.e. skip the 22 kw option and go with the HCS-60 CrippleCreek and have a Separate 60 Amp (48 Amp usable) circuit run.

Thanks again for the discussion - much appreciated. And hopefully helpful to others as well :)

-Bruce
What did you end up installing? I ordered a HCS-80 (it was "used", but in fact, brand new, for a sizable discount direct from Clipper Creek) and will have it hooked on to a 100 amp circuit. Anything that you learned that I should pass on to my electrician?
 


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What did you end up installing? I ordered a HCS-80 (it was "used", but in fact, brand new, for a sizable discount direct from Clipper Creek) and will have it hooked on to a 100 amp circuit. Anything that you learned that I should pass on to my electrician?
Hello @dgompper,

Sorry for the delay replying. I decided on the following:

1) I am installing a 50 AMP circuit (40 Usable) and will install the PMCC with the included mounting brackets (ie I am not getting the bulky “dock”). That will give me the Porsche specked 9.6kw charging rate. This is exactly what Porsche recommends. The Copper for the circuit will be installed such that I can upgrade to a 60 without rewiring the copper in the future.

2) At some point in the future I will upgrade the circuit to a 60 AMP (48 Usable) that will do 11 kw with something a ClipperCreek or equivalent charger.

I reached this conclusion after some very frustrating follow up with Porsche and based on my past experience in tech (nothing to do with cars though). It my be worth me sharing my thoughts so here they are.

After my follow up on the thread above I had it pretty set in my mind that I wanted to go with the Clipper Creek solution that gave 11kw. I have no expertise in this but that seemed the obvious solution from my follow up on the thread above.

But I wanted to get some confirmation from Porsche it would be okay. That started a series of back and forth emails that were steadily escalated within Porsche with me stating the apparently obvious reasons it should be okay for me to go with the Clipper Creek HCS-60 at 11kw and their continued replies that it is not “recommended”. I argued that what if I was at a remote charger could I not use a Clipper Creek 48 amp charger and would get back it is not recommended for my home charger and The PMCC is what is recommended.

I realized I either just had to ignore them or follow their direction - that my back and forth escalation was useless. (I was about to send an email asking why I dont have to put Porsche branded gasoline in my Panamera but thought better of it before sending than on...)

I realized this when I read further down in the Porsche Taycan user manual (page 80) that I quoted in my post a bit earlier in this thread where it says:

“ Porsche recommends that you use charging equipment supplied and approved by Porsche together with the charging dock or the basic wall mount. Refer to the separate instructions for the Porsche charging equipment and the vehicle charging cable use”

So no matter how much I pushed I expect the Porsche organization was not going to deviate from that direction.

So as much as it frustrated me - given Porsche would not agree it was “okay” for me to install something besides the PMCC I decided at least for now I would install what they recommend.

While I have no expertise in EV charging systems, I was in enterprise software for over 25 years - and in building that kind of software you often have recommendations as to how the software should be used, the environment it is installed on, and it is certified to run on certain very specific hardware platforms, etc. One could deviate from those recommendations and 99% of the time it would still work fine and some of the strict recommendations seemed ridiculous - but when you operate outside of the recommendations those cases were operating outside of the parameters that had been used for potentially thousands of hours of automated regression testing for each change to the system. When you go to swap the RAM out of a runner server - will it still work and stay up 24x7 (or properly fail over) if the server is not “certified”... but I digress..

In my experience in the early stages complex tech products tend to be more brittle to the “ridiculous” recommendations. Hopefully as a product matures it is not so dependent on strict requirements and instead is adaptive to a generally accepted standard and becomes less “brittle”.

The fact that Porsche is so hard core about requiring the PMCC and the weird issues people see with the 12 Volt Batter and other issues - this feels more like an early stage product that is not ready to operate with high reliability against a general standard. So I am choosing to go with their recommendation even though it seems ridiculous to me.

Even more frustrating is that there is some evidence from what I see in the forum that using the PMCC is less reliable than something like the Clipper Creek HCS-60.

But at least if I follow all of Porsches recommendations then if there is an issue they have to own it.

And ultimately I believe the product will mature and at some point Porsche will have to say any charger that meets the standard is fine. At that point and/or after I see less weird issues crop up in the forums related to charging and the electrical system and the app, etc., I will switch to 48 AMP charging.

I am not sure my reasoning makes sense for this case with EVs - but ultimately 40 AMPs or 48 AMPs are both fast enough for me to charge over night so the difference is not big enough for me to deviate from the Porsche recommendation.
 
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  • the 12 volt issues have occured with the PMCC
  • the vehicle and part number shipping with NA america taycan’s is the same 11 kW unit shipping in other countries
  • porsche can’t require you to use porsche charging equipment when away from home
  • porsche provides no method to restrict the vehicle to 40 amps when using say a 64 amp hotel charger
  • if you encounter a public charger that offers 48/64/80 amps the Taycan will charge at 48 amps
  • this flys in the face of their recommended porsche equipment if you order the 19.2 kW charging option on the 2021 - porsche doesn’t offer a 19.2 kW charger in North America - so they are selling an option that can not follow their own recommendation
    • if you order this option - porsche does not provide any equipment to utilize it - please ask them why customers should pay for it.
  • porsche doesn’t make fast chargers either - so you can not follow the recommendation as fast charge your Taycan
  • the vehicle is rated and documented as supporting 11 kW charging in the rest of the world
  • following Porsche’s own advise means their do not recomend using _ANY_ public EV chargers.
I also have 30 years experience in technology and understand your thinking, but in this case Porsche is just being stupid - there are sooooo many circumstances under which you can not follow “porsche’s“ recommendations.

my local porsche dealer has non-porsche chargers installed and uses them.

you do you and I 100% support your decision - but lets be clear - if you ever use a non-Porsche charger - which you will when you’re away from home - porsche has to own that also.

“ Porsche recommends that you use charging equipment supplied and approved by Porsche together with the charging dock or the basic wall mount. Refer to the separate instructions for the Porsche charging equipment and the vehicle charging cable use”
Porsche does not provide any Porsche charger in north america that supports 19.2 kW charging - following this advise means this option _IS_ only useful with non-Porsche charging equipment - and the option violates Porsche’s own recomendations for a featured option available with MY 2021 Taycans in north america.
 
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Porsche‘s own website recomends using Amazon to install your Ev charging equipment:

https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/taycan/taycan-models/#charging~open

Porsche Taycan Observed Behavior: North American 2020 Taycan has max 11 kW L2 charger (48 amps) not max 9.6 kW (40 amps) F7B26AF3-F883-4132-AAF4-6CD1996E81F1


the amazon website the Porsche USA directs you to:

https://www.amazon.com/porschecharging

does not list or sell any Porsche branded EVSEs see photo below from the site

Porsche Taycan Observed Behavior: North American 2020 Taycan has max 11 kW L2 charger (48 amps) not max 9.6 kW (40 amps) 035E9DC2-E5DA-4F64-86BB-17D5E50DA3A0


the pure stupidity of the response you have receieve from Porsche and the pure lack of thought or understanding about EVs is what i hate about the existing manufacturers doing EV’s - I’ve gotten similar BS from my other EV vendors: Ford, Chevy, and now Porsche - they simply don’t understand and you asked an organization optmized to support gas cars to render a thoughtful opinion about something they clearly do not understand.

my Chevy dealer gave me the same BS when I bought my 1st Bolt - when I asked about the included EVSE with the Bolt - which is only a 12 amp 120 volt charger. He said you can only use the Chevy provided charger. I pointed out to him it would take nearly 70 hours to charge the car using the Chevy provided charger but the chevy specs said the vehicle could be charged in less than 8 hours at 7.68 kW. He then told me that is only the case with “fast chargers” not home chargers and I might damage the Bolt if I used a non-Chevy home charger. when I pointed out fast chargers are 50,000 watts and the Chevy site documentes a 7,680 watt L2 charging rate, and the provided Chevy charger only does 1,440 watts - he had no repsonse, because he was clueless and wrong.

Porsche’s own north american website directs you to a vendor that will recommend non-Porsche EV charging hardware be installed.
 
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I agree with you and was very frustrated in the response I received from Porsche and was on the fence about completely ignoring them for the reasons you described above vs following their direction.

I decided that Porsche making the PMCC “free” for 2021 MY was an indication they really wanted customers to have it and to use it so that tipped me in favor of just going with their recommendation (at least for the first year or so) while any potential teething issues continue t worked out. Given the copper in the Circuit I am installing will support upgrading to the Clipper Creek HCS-60 there is very little additional costs for me waiting.

That said I also agree it is ridiculous that Porsche (and other auto manufactures as you point out) won’t just state that so long as you use a properly installed charger that meets the recommended specification that you are good.
 
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hey porsche finally updated the Standard Equipment for North American Taycan to note "correctly" that the onboard charger is 11 kW!!!!!

OMG it only took them 3 years!!!!

note the screen shot I took this morning for standard equipment for a Taycan

11 kW Onboard Charger!!!!

Porsche Taycan Observed Behavior: North American 2020 Taycan has max 11 kW L2 charger (48 amps) not max 9.6 kW (40 amps) IMG_1718
 

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Hi Dave,

Did you know the maxaium Kw AC charger we can use?
Because I use 220v/80A charger in the public parking, will always get failed messager after 10 mins.
My Taycan is MT23, equip with 22 kW AC converter should be okay for 17Kw charger I think....

Porsche Taycan Observed Behavior: North American 2020 Taycan has max 11 kW L2 charger (48 amps) not max 9.6 kW (40 amps) IMG_4760


Porsche Taycan Observed Behavior: North American 2020 Taycan has max 11 kW L2 charger (48 amps) not max 9.6 kW (40 amps) IMG_4761.PNG
 
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Hi Dave,

Did you know the maxaium Kw AC charger we can use?
Because I use 220v/80A charger in the public parking, will always get failed messager after 10 mins.
My Taycan is MT23, equip with 22 kW AC converter should be okay for 17Kw charger I think....

IMG_4760.jpeg


IMG_4761.PNG
I'm onlly familiar with North American stuff - but this appears to be a faulty EV charger that you're using at your location - or have the dealer check out the onboard charger for your vehicle, but I know very little about charging outside North America - sorry.
 

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I'm onlly familiar with North American stuff - but this appears to be a faulty EV charger that you're using at your location - or have the dealer check out the onboard charger for your vehicle, but I know very little about charging outside North America - sorry.
I think I found the root casue, Taycan only support 11 Kw AC with 2 phase.
Which means 220V/50A.
If you want reach faster AC charging you will need 3 pahse for example (32A/220V or 16A/220V)
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