Options more expensive than the $460 400V/150 kW charging option…honestly wow…

satchurator

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Maybe it doesn’t appeal to everybody and their present day need, but anyone who’s on the fence with this particular option should consider resale, that one-off ‘stranding’ moment or a future change in circumstances such as a new job & commute.

IMO this is about paying a (relatively) modest amount for flexibility, optionality. And even if you never use the feature, it might help with resale value if by then Tesla have gotten as far as opening up their network in the US. The 150kW/400V option became a no-brainer as soon as we saw concrete evidence of Tesla moving in that direction.
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Jhenson29

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Playing the devil's advocate here, would you take a $460 credit if Porsche was to remove all DC charging capabilities from the car? If not, why not if you have exactly zero plans to use ever use it?
I’m going to call foul on two accounts here.

First, there are effectively three options here:

  1. No DC charger.
  2. 50kW@400VDC / 270kW@800VDC
  3. 150kW@400VDC / 270kW@800VDC
You’re trying to equate the delta between the second two with the delta between the first two. Not at all fair, now is it?

Second, even if the question was “if the 150kW charger was included as standard, would I accept a credit of $460 to remove it”,…while there’s no monetary difference, it doesn’t feel the same and I think generally, you’ll have a lower percentage of people opt to remove it vs opt to decline adding it. Although, I admit I don’t know the technical terms or theory. If I had to guess, I would guess it’s at least related to how losses feel more impactful than gains, but I really don’t know. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can chime in.

Regardless, no, I would not accept a $460 credit to remove all DC charging. Nor would I accept a $460 credit to remove the 150kW 400VDC option if it were standard.

I would, however, not add the 150kW DC 400VDC charger.

Also, if the car had no DC charger as standard, there exists a price point that I would not add it, and while I don’t know what that point Is exactly, it’s probably not very high. But again, to not have it at all is very different than to not have one specific type of upgrade. I do believe I paid more for the 19.2kW option than I would pay for any DC charging at all, just to put an upper bound on it.

To give another one example of the difference between not adding options vs removing options, I never plan to use Apple Music (other than testing it in relation to a thread on here). I wouldn’t pay $50 to add it if it wasn’t included. But…I also wouldn’t accept a $50 credit to remove it. ?‍♂
More importantly, if selling the car, you expand your potential buyer pool by including DC charging.
But…the car does have DC charging, so…?
The argument is that some time in the life of the car (10-15 years) there is a good chance it will become useful.
I think I’ve been quite clear and consistent on my opinion here. It’s too slow to be useful. And a 150kW charger isn’t going to get faster in the future. That’s just it’s speed. So, 150kW vs 50kW. Hmm. Nope. Might as well ask me if I want to walk or ride a bike. How about neither! We’re going to need much larger gains because I don’t consider any of that useful.

But that opinion is specific to myself. Others are welcome to find it useful for themselves and that’s fine.

Further, we’re still really early in all of this. We really don’t know how many of what type of stations there will be. For the time I’ll have the car, it won’t matter. Gas stations will continue to dominate.
Even buyers who don't plan to DC charge, may still believe that at some point they might want to.
Not I.
 

feye

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How do you future proof something, if you have no clue what the future holds?

If we just look at the near future, we know that EA is building many more stations. We also know that Plug&Charge is working (is getting more reliable) but will never work on SuC.

There might be some rare cases at the moment, where this option makes sense, but for the large majority of Taycan drivers, there is no reason to spend money on this.

Here in China it is entirely different. The public charging network made up by 100k company, you have no clue what kind of charger you get. I have seen more 400V charging than 800V charging.

Porsche Taycan Options more expensive than the $460 400V/150 kW charging option…honestly wow… 1637383053607


Rivian (no product on the road) is almost as valuable as VW! :CWL:

At the end, just another thread to push the T junk agenda. Share price not overvalued enough?
 

whitex

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I’m going to call foul on two accounts here.

First, there are effectively three options here:

  1. No DC charger.
  2. 50kW@400VDC / 270kW@800VDC
  3. 150kW@400VDC / 270kW@800VDC
You’re trying to equate the delta between the second two with the delta between the first two. Not at all fair, now is it?
Not exactly. I did make a distinction about 150KW being an extension (add on option) to the regular DC charging, but since you said you have "exactly zero" use for DC charging at all I was curious whether you'd let 50KW go for the same price (maybe I should have "pro-rated it" and asked about $230 credit, the upgrade option seems to be $4.60/KW ;) ).

Second, even if the question was “if the 150kW charger was included as standard, would I accept a credit of $460 to remove it”,…while there’s no monetary difference, it doesn’t feel the same and I think generally, you’ll have a lower percentage of people opt to remove it vs opt to decline adding it. Although, I admit I don’t know the technical terms or theory. If I had to guess, I would guess it’s at least related to how losses feel more impactful than gains, but I really don’t know. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can chime in.

Regardless, no, I would not accept a $460 credit to remove all DC charging. Nor would I accept a $460 credit to remove the 150kW 400VDC option if it were standard.

I would, however, not add the 150kW DC 400VDC charger.
Thanks for being honest about the decision being mostly emotionally motivated rather than rational/logical - based on what feels good to you. The psychological effect you are referring to may be the well known fact that people tend to overvalue things they already have - famous example experiment showing it is you invite a group of people to a "marketing study", show them a product such as a new thermos coffee cup, ask them to fill out a survey how much they would pay for one of those. Once they do it, you tell them that in appreciation for their feedback, each participant gets a free thermos coffee cup to take home, and that you're going to take them to lunch. After lunch, you ask people how much they would sell you the mug back for. Surprise, surprise, the average asking price to buy the mug back is significantly higher than the value the very same people put on that mug an hour earlier! Human nature at work. :) Same phenomenon at work by the way why a person would not sell a stock they own, but would also not buy more, even if you take away all tax implications.

Personally I try to be aware of human psychology and the effects it has on my decision-making. I try to be rational. However, all that said, I also consider paying for what gives me pleasure a rational argument. My primary motivation to buy a Taycan is because it will give me pleasure to drive it and I can afford one, not because it makes any financial sense, or because it will save the planet (I could buy much cheaper EV's to accomplish that). :)

To give another one example of the difference between not adding options vs removing options, I never plan to use Apple Music (other than testing it in relation to a thread on here). I wouldn’t pay $50 to add it if it wasn’t included. But…I also wouldn’t accept a $50 credit to remove it. ?‍♂
I would, unless I knew it cannot be added back but would significantly reduce its resale value ($500+). Same reason why I would easily take $500 credit to remove the sport sound, since I didn't care for it whenever I test drove the car, but don't see it being worth over $500 to the next buyer. I wouldn't pay for it either, but since it comes with some other package I do want, AND I can turn it off, I'm not going to pay to remove it. I did once pay extra to remove a sunroof on a 911 order, it also came with some package but I could not easily turn it off. I have also removed free options from my prior car builds (free to remove, but no credit) if I couldn't completely disable them during use (e.g. free $2K red caliper option on on of my Model S)

Bottom line for me, I want he car the way I want it. Extra options which I don't use are fine as long as I can disable them completely, but would happily take their value credit. Now, if my car came with missing sport sounds which was included, I would in fact expect the dealer to put it in or credit me $500, since I feel I paid for it so it should be there for me to resell, even if I don't plan to use it.

I think I’ve been quite clear and consistent on my opinion here. It’s too slow to be useful. And a 150kW charger isn’t going to get faster in the future. That’s just it’s speed. So, 150kW vs 50kW. Hmm. Nope. Might as well ask me if I want to walk or ride a bike. How about neither! We’re going to need much larger gains because I don’t consider any of that useful.

But that opinion is specific to myself. Others are welcome to find it useful for themselves and that’s fine.
Having driven a Tesla (similar range to Taycan) coast to coast, I will tell you 50KW vs. 150KW makes a very big difference. Stopping to charge for 20 minutes instead of 60 minutes every couple of hours really does make a difference. 20 minutes is just enough time to visit the restroom, buy a coffee and snack refill, quick sms/email check, and get back on the road.
 
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Jhenson29

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Not exactly. I did make a distinction about 150KW being an extension (add on option) to the regular DC charging, but since you said you have "exactly zero" use for DC charging at all I was curious whether you'd let 50KW go for the same price (maybe I should have "pro-rated it" and asked about $230 credit, the upgrade option seems to be $23/KW ;) ).
You said “remove all DC charging capabilities from the car”. I took that to include 800VDC charging as well. So, it should actual be a much higher value to remove all of it. Not less.
Thanks for being honest about the decision being mostly emotionally motivated rather than rational/logical - based on what feels good to you.
I think it’s somewhat of both. I think it’s perfectly rational to not add it. It’s the discrepancy in not adding it vs not removing it that is not rational. And I’m okay with that.

Personally I try to be aware of human psychology and the effects it has on my decision-making.
Me too, but not to be more rational. Rather, to comfort myself when I can clearly see my decision is not rational. ?

Having driven a Tesla (similar range to Taycan) coast to coast, I will tell you 50KW vs. 150KW makes a very big difference.
I understand the difference. And if I were forced to use an EV for that purpose, I absolutely would option it. But I’m not. Gas is an option. So, if I’m using it, it’s instead of gas. So, that’s my comparison.

One more note. I’m not completely adverse to EV for travel. Once the infrastructure and charging power improves sufficiently, I’ll be all in. I’d trade my Macan in for an electric one today if that were the case (and if the electric Macan was available…). But I don’t see the EV travel experience overtaking ICE for myself in the next 5-6 years. I’m more hesitant to project beyond that. We’ll see.
 


whitex

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You said “remove all DC charging capabilities from the car”. I took that to include 800VDC charging as well. So, it should actual be a much higher value to remove all of it. Not less.
Well, you said you never ever plan to charge outside of your house, so unless you have an 800V DC charging at home, same difference. ;)

I think it’s somewhat of both. I think it’s perfectly rational to not add it. It’s the discrepancy in not adding it vs not removing it that is not rational. And I’m okay with that.
That is exactly the discrepancy I was talking about. What you're saying is that to you the decision not to add is rational, but decision not to remove it is irrational. However, unless you clarify that point, it could be interpreted opposite way (decision not to remove as rational, therefore decision not to add irrational) - I guess it depends on your point of view. ?:cool:

Me too, but not to be more rational. Rather, to comfort myself when I can clearly see my decision is not rational. ?
My trick is to put a value my own satisfaction, an argument which can be used to rationalize a lot, like buying a Taycan. If that doesn't get you there, throw in a little YOLO rational. :CWL:

One more note. I’m not completely adverse to EV for travel. Once the infrastructure and charging power improves sufficiently, I’ll be all in. I’d trade my Macan in for an electric one today if that were the case (and if the electric Macan was available…). But I don’t see the EV travel experience overtaking ICE for myself in the next 5-6 years. I’m more hesitant to project beyond that. We’ll see.
I used to be hesitant. Kept my wife's can an ICE for similar reason. Then I did a 6,000 mile coast to coast trip, and when I came back, replaced the ICE car with a second EV - no more ICE, never felt any anxiety about it. That said, both our EV's are Teslas today, and at the very beginning (2013) when supercharger network was it its infancy, I would not have gotten rid of the ICE car. But by 2016, it was at a stage where there was coverage anywhere I went, hence no more ICE. I suspect a similar process might happen with a Taycan, keep my wife's Tesla until I am comfortable in DC charging proliferation in the areas I drive, and only then replace the Tesla.
 

Tsingtao

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How do you future proof something, if you have no clue what the future holds?

If we just look at the near future, we know that EA is building many more stations. We also know that Plug&Charge is working (is getting more reliable) but will never work on SuC.

There might be some rare cases at the moment, where this option makes sense, but for the large majority of Taycan drivers, there is no reason to spend money on this.

Here in China it is entirely different. The public charging network made up by 100k company, you have no clue what kind of charger you get. I have seen more 400V charging than 800V charging.

1637383053607.png


Rivian (no product on the road) is almost as valuable as VW! :CWL:

At the end, just another thread to push the T junk agenda. Share price not overvalued enough?
I agree on the future proof front. I can't predict the future (especially when it comes to Elon Musk) but my guess is that in ten years (+ or -), high school kids will be buying up all our used Taycans for pennies on the dollar because they are so outdated in terms of weight and range/battery tech. A 150 kW DC charger won't change any of that.
 

Jhenson29

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Well, you said you never ever plan to charge outside of your house, so unless you have an 800V DC charging at home, same difference. ;)
It’s a real difference of potential capabilities though, and I took that into consideration while answering. While I never plan to do so, if an odd situation arose and it was required, I wouldn’t refuse on principle (that would be silly; and I have no such principle anyway). Rather, I just don’t plan on putting myself in a situation that requires it (and have a history that suggests I’ll be successful).

I don’t plan on flooding my basement either. That doesn’t mean I don’t have flood insurance or that I wouldn’t collect it if needed.

Next I’ll hear (from someone, I’m sure):
“But that’s what’s being said about the 150kW charger; it’s like insurance.”

Let me just preempt anyone. Yeah. I get it. I also don’t need every insurance available. I have no wheel insurance. I’ve had that twice. Waste of money both times. I’m perfectly happy just paying to fix or replace wheels as needed.


I used to be hesitant. Kept my wife's can an ICE for similar reason. Then I did a 6,000 mile coast to coast trip, and when I came back, replaced the ICE car with a second EV - no more ICE, never felt any anxiety about it.
While anxiety is certainly part of it, there’s also a real difference in both speed and quantity of locations that has a measurable impact on both travel time and planning. Keep in mind, I travel frequently and I’m probably not the standard on this aspect. i just had a 1000 mile round trip to OH this week. 20 min of stops total. That’s two fuel only stops at 4 min each and 1 fuel, bathroom, convenience store, and drive-thru stop at 12 min (would have been 8 if I skipped the drive-thru). I’ve been measuring more and timing my stops closer recently. And remember, my times are total off-road time. And I had zero planning on all 3. It was “time to stop? what’s around…”

And, as I’m thinking about it more, I am about to more or less optimize my stops, even though they are unplanned. This trip was in a work vehicle (a Ford transit connect) and it only got around 360 miles/tank. It’s full when I get it and I have to return It full. So, 3 fills to cover 1000 miles at 360 miles per tank is pretty optimal. I probably could have done it in two stops with one of our larger vans. It would have been pushing it in my Macan. I don’t think it would have made it in two.
 


jvincent

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I used my 400V/150 kW charger for a track day in Oct. @ Laguna Seca - I was able to charge at 75 kW at the near by Monterey Airport ChargePoint FastDC chargers - published charge rate 62 kW - actual observed rate 68-75 kW - definately 400V chargers - if I’d not had the upgrade it would’ve been capped at 50 kW…
I see your checkins on PlugShare. The MRY Airport chargers appear to be ChargePoint Express 250 units capable of delivering up to 1000 Volts. These units were evidently installed in September, so not legacy. What are you basing your 400V assertion on? I'd be curious as to what the data plate shows, as I was told that new ChargePoint installs now support up to 1000 Volts.

CPE250-BR-EN-US.pdf

Universal Compatibility: The Express 250 supports battery packs from 200V to 1000V, ensuring both legacy and future electric vehicles can always be charged.
MRY Airport via PlugShare

Porsche Taycan Options more expensive than the $460 400V/150 kW charging option…honestly wow… 717037
 
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Tavsan

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So Taycan has a DC to DC converter for boosting 400V to 800V but it can only handle 50kW. I think this converter should be able to handle 150kw by standard. There are many options that should be included in the base model. Both the sports sound and 150kW 400V charging should be included in the base model. Well especially the sport sound, which is software only, it does not add equipment or any weight to the car.

My take on sport sound is that I see it as a safety feature for driving in areas with pedestrians and cyclists and that is the reason I would include it in my build.
 

Jhenson29

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Well especially the sport sound, which is software only, it does not add equipment or any weight to the car.
My understanding is that sport sound does include additional hardware.


My take on sport sound is that I see it as a safety feature for driving in areas with pedestrians and cyclists and that is the reason I would include it in my build.
The car makes separate noise for this purpose. Sport sound is not required for pedestrian safety.
 

riburn3

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My take on sport sound is that I see it as a safety feature for driving in areas with pedestrians and cyclists and that is the reason I would include it in my build.
As Jhenson said, the car makes external pedestrian noise as standard. It sounds very similar to the piped in Sport Sound. If you were buying it as a safety feature you sadly wasted your money.
 

obscurelyfamous

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As Jhenson said, the car makes external pedestrian noise as standard. It sounds very similar to the piped in Sport Sound. If you were buying it as a safety feature you sadly wasted your money.
What does it do? My car is still incoming but the few times I’ve driven the Taycan, it was dead quiet to me when sport sound wasn’t on. Maybe I wasn’t paying attention?
 

XLR82XS

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What does it do? My car is still incoming but the few times I’ve driven the Taycan, it was dead quiet to me when sport sound wasn’t on. Maybe I wasn’t paying attention?
Put the car is reverse and roll down the windows - start moving. It can also be heard in drive when moving less than ~20mph.
 

Jhenson29

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What does it do? My car is still incoming but the few times I’ve driven the Taycan, it was dead quiet to me when sport sound wasn’t on. Maybe I wasn’t paying attention?
It’s relatively quiet on the interior without sports sound (I don’t have sports sound to really compare), but there’s still some noise. I’m fairly sure it’s artificial because it doesn’t really sound like a normal motor and drive. I notice it more because I frequently drive with the radio off.

But it must be much louder on the outside because I can hear the car when my wife starts it up in the garage and as she’s pulling away down the street.

We’ve had other people comment on it’s external noise as well (that it sounds like a spaceship).
First post, third story below.
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/share-your-stories-of-attention.5902/
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