Porsche Take Note: Mercedes has realized fast charging is part of ownership experience

Tooney

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2021
Threads
236
Messages
1,530
Reaction score
1,151
Location
Ohio
Vehicles
2022 Taycan 4S
Country flag
One of the best things about this forum - unlike many online forums - is that there are very few people here who are rude, criticize other posts, or try to suppress content of posts.
Sponsored

 
OP
OP
daveo4EV

daveo4EV

Well-Known Member
First Name
David
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Threads
149
Messages
5,368
Reaction score
7,852
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
Taycan, Cayenne Hybrid, 911(s) GT3/Convertable
Country flag
One of the best things about this forum - unlike many online forums - is that there are very few people here who are rude, criticize other posts, or try to suppress content of posts.
reported!


/joking.
 

XLR82XS

Well-Known Member
First Name
LXA
Joined
Mar 31, 2021
Threads
9
Messages
1,974
Reaction score
1,343
Location
SW FL | Vegas
Vehicles
2021 Taycan | 2021 Cayenne GTS | 2018 991.2 | DMC
One of the best things about this forum - unlike many online forums - is that there are very few people here who are rude, criticize other posts, or try to suppress content of posts.
FWIW I have had a totally harmless post or 2 censored and have seen posts that should be censored - not.
 

snstevens

Well-Known Member
First Name
Sam
Joined
Jul 10, 2020
Threads
16
Messages
586
Reaction score
799
Location
Kirkland, WA United States
Vehicles
Taycan 4S
Country flag
One of the best things about this forum - unlike many online forums - is that there are very few people here who are rude, criticize other posts, or try to suppress content of posts.
I found myself going down the "I'm pissed and don't mind saying it" rathole once or twice. Thankfully, I recovered my sanity and deleted the post.

Even when I'm not in full agreement with you guys/gals, I've come to value all the different perspectives. Keep it coming...
 

f1eng

Well-Known Member
First Name
Frank
Joined
Aug 19, 2021
Threads
31
Messages
3,016
Reaction score
4,931
Location
Oxfordshire, UK
Vehicles
Taycan CT4S, Ferrari 355, Merc 500E, Prius PHV
Country flag
I find the whole charging infrastructure question a difficult one.

Should we expect car makers to provide it or, like fuel stations for IC engined cars, the energy supplier?

It was obvious Tesla had to do a network since as the first mass EV seller it was something which didn’t yet exist for their new product.

So should all makers be expected to follow suit or is that unreasonable in a free market?

I suppose in the end if there is profit there will be people doing it.

Is it so much better in France, Germany and Scandinavia because of government intervention?

It is certainly poor here in the UK due to lack of investment but so are the roads, schools, hospitals etc..
 


Scandinavian

Well-Known Member
First Name
Peter
Joined
Nov 3, 2019
Threads
41
Messages
2,570
Reaction score
2,098
Location
France
Vehicles
Taycan T, Tesla M3P, Aston Martin DB9, Porsche 996 C4 Cab
Country flag
Is it so much better in France, Germany and Scandinavia because of government intervention?
I am not sure that the government has intervened for HPC in France, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium or Scandinavia?. I might be wrong? But a lot of good Roll out along the major routes have been established. Driving from Nice to Calais, I think I saw about 30 - 40 km between service stations with HPC. Ionity, Total, Fastned, Tesla open for all. And many more networks. Most annoying thing is that for some of these networks you need separate apps etc. The UK is La king that roll out big time with many nice routes and places, totally lack of chargers unfortunately. Hope it will improve soon.
 

violuma

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2023
Threads
0
Messages
134
Reaction score
147
Location
San Carlos, CA
Vehicles
1988 BMW E28
Country flag
Should we expect car makers to provide it or, like fuel stations for IC engined cars, the energy supplier?
I think there's an unavoidable chicken-and-egg aspect of this. In the long term, there has to be sufficient ROI for whoever builds the charging infrastructure to continue to maintain and expand it. It's an open question (and my guess is "no") whether absent any public sector nudging, EV prevalence will reach sufficient critical mass to spur speculative private sector investment in chargers.

Now I know that Who Framed Roger Rabbit? is not a documentary, but there are some aspects of it that are not too far divorced from reality. To an extent, in the US market, the petrochemical extraction companies and the automobile manufacturers did establish a mutual feedback loop of profitability. But I don't think even that could have happened without the public sector investment in the interstate highway system.

So, in the short and medium term, I think it has to fall to the public sector to some degree to fold the externalities of fossil fuel consumption into the marketplace, via a combination of the stick of taxation and the carrot of subsidy.

Once we have reached a point where both EV production and charging infrastructure have been sufficiently (really looking for a metaphor other than "jump started"), then we can let the marketplace decide the answer to your question, and I don't see any compelling reason that the public needs to favor one option over the other.
 

Archimedes

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2022
Threads
10
Messages
1,809
Reaction score
2,284
Location
Monterey
Vehicles
2022 Taycan 4S
Country flag
If I'm stuck at a charger waiting for 2 hrs instead of 20 min, with 2 kids in the car, does that count?
(EA between Seattle and Portland, 9:30pm - all nearby locations for food/drinks/retail were closed.)

I am expecting 20 min charges at a 350kw station based on what Porsche sold me.
What? First off, you’re certainly not that naive, are you? You did some minimal research on charging infrastructure before you bought your car, right?

Second, Porsche didn’t sell you on anything, as they don’t control the fast charging architecture. They promised you the capability of the car, nothing more. Just like every other EV manufacturer.

Anyone who went into EV ownership thinking they were going to get 20 minute full charges everywhere all the time simply didn’t do their due diligence before deciding to go electric.

Finally, the idea that just because XYZ company is building their own network, everything’s gonna be peachy is equally naive. Because aside from the massive challenge of doing that, they still won’t control the source of the power, which is a big part of why you can’t always get full power at EA. Because the power provider has to balance load to all its customers and can’t just send full power to any site all the time.
 


fullmetalbaal

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2021
Threads
9
Messages
406
Reaction score
467
Location
Seattle
Vehicles
Taycan 4S
Country flag
What? First off, you’re certainly not that naive, are you? You did some minimal research on charging infrastructure before you bought your car, right?

Second, Porsche didn’t sell you on anything, as they don’t control the fast charging architecture. They promised you the capability of the car, nothing more. Just like every other EV manufacturer.

Anyone who went into EV ownership thinking they were going to get 20 minute full charges everywhere all the time simply didn’t do their due diligence before deciding to go electric.

Finally, the idea that just because XYZ company is building their own network, everything’s gonna be peachy is equally naive. Because aside from the massive challenge of doing that, they still won’t control the source of the power, which is a big part of why you can’t always get full power at EA. Because the power provider has to balance load to all its customers and can’t just send full power to any site all the time.
At a high level, Tesla Supercharger network gives me reliable 20-30 charging stops, and they've had that for over 5 years. I trusted that the entire rest of the industry would manage to eventually match what one little startup delivered. The initial EA press was certainly very much focused on showing 750+ chargers and 2B in spend etc. Porsche also had material about how they would have their own chargers. Reality failed to deliver. That happens. And when it happens, you read about it in blogs and forums(used to be magazines,etc. but those are all click-bait stories now). That's one of my reasons for sharing my experience - so somebody considering options can factor that in.

When Porsche keeps advertising 350kw, I do start expecting that I can actually benefit from that with some regularity. Not every stop... but the reality is that I can count on a single hand the number of times I've benefitted from that in 2+ years of ownership.


>>>Finally, the idea that just because XYZ company is building their own network, everything’s gonna be peachy is equally naive.

at the very least, I don't have the frustrating experiences I now have when I call support: EA blames the car, Porsche blames EA. It's happened several times to me, to the point where I don't even call anymore, I just drive on.

>> Because aside from the massive challenge of doing that, they still won’t control the source of the power, which is a big part of why you can’t always get full power at EA.

Tesla doesn't control the source of power either - so not sure how that's a big part for EA, but magically Tesla avoids that issue.
 

Archimedes

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2022
Threads
10
Messages
1,809
Reaction score
2,284
Location
Monterey
Vehicles
2022 Taycan 4S
Country flag
But Tesla doesn’t charge near as fast, do they? They’re max 250 and from what I hear they don’t typically get near that. My friends with Teslas tell me it takes them 30 minutes or more to get to 85% at a supercharger, which is similar to what it takes me at EA.

The EA problem is not enough working chargers and shit locations, none of which has been a secret. When I bought my Taycan two years ago, I knew full well public charging would suck for a long time. A lot of people pointing fingers instead accepting that maybe the just didn’t do their research.
 

snstevens

Well-Known Member
First Name
Sam
Joined
Jul 10, 2020
Threads
16
Messages
586
Reaction score
799
Location
Kirkland, WA United States
Vehicles
Taycan 4S
Country flag
At a high level, Tesla Supercharger network gives me reliable 20-30 charging stops, and they've had that for over 5 years. I trusted that the entire rest of the industry would manage to eventually match what one little startup delivered. The initial EA press was certainly very much focused on showing 750+ chargers and 2B in spend etc. Porsche also had material about how they would have their own chargers. Reality failed to deliver. That happens. And when it happens, you read about it in blogs and forums(used to be magazines,etc. but those are all click-bait stories now). That's one of my reasons for sharing my experience - so somebody considering options can factor that in.

When Porsche keeps advertising 350kw, I do start expecting that I can actually benefit from that with some regularity. Not every stop... but the reality is that I can count on a single hand the number of times I've benefitted from that in 2+ years of ownership.


>>>Finally, the idea that just because XYZ company is building their own network, everything’s gonna be peachy is equally naive.

at the very least, I don't have the frustrating experiences I now have when I call support: EA blames the car, Porsche blames EA. It's happened several times to me, to the point where I don't even call anymore, I just drive on.

>> Because aside from the massive challenge of doing that, they still won’t control the source of the power, which is a big part of why you can’t always get full power at EA.

Tesla doesn't control the source of power either - so not sure how that's a big part for EA, but magically Tesla avoids that issue.
To be completely honest, I fell for the Porsche advertising too. I was expecting 800V architecture and rapid DC HV charging as part of the package of buying the Taycan. This was my first EV, and so I trusted the hype more than I should have.

Also, the positive experience of Tesla customers was an influencing factor. I figured that every vendor would be at least as good as Tesla. Well, I know that sounds incredibly naive at this point, but that was my starting point.

Only after experiencing the inferior EA infrastructure over many months did I come to realize that the Tesla SuC was simply way better, and that I would have to reset my expectations for EA.

Do I feel like I didn’t do my homework? No, not really. In fact I think that everyone from the CEOs of Ford and GM to the Secretary of Energy initially thought that the the non-Tesla charging infrastructure was “good enough” and simply needed to be expanded to keep up with EV adoption rates. Their attempts to use that infrastructure poured cold water all over that dream, and now everyone is trying to fix the problem in real time. For Ford, GM, and Rivian that means partnering with Tesla, and of course for now we don’t know what the hell Porsche will do. Their nifty Porsche Charging Lounge seems to me like cruel joke at this point. Just give me a reliable Fast DC charging network please 🙏
 

fullmetalbaal

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2021
Threads
9
Messages
406
Reaction score
467
Location
Seattle
Vehicles
Taycan 4S
Country flag
But Tesla doesn’t charge near as fast, do they? They’re max 250 and from what I hear they don’t typically get near that. My friends with Teslas tell me it takes them 30 minutes or more to get to 85% at a supercharger, which is similar to what it takes me at EA.

The EA problem is not enough working chargers and shit locations, none of which has been a secret. When I bought my Taycan two years ago, I knew full well public charging would suck for a long time. A lot of people pointing fingers instead accepting that maybe the just didn’t do their research.
They do 250 and the newer cars reliably hit 250 and then taper down. I can't tell you which year / model is the inflection point. Every Tesla I've ever owned or charged (including rentals), has hit >200kw when sufficiently discharged and kept it up for quite a while. Does it keep it up as long as a Taycan? Under perfect conditions - no. But I have certainly spent magnitudes more minutes charging a Tesla at over 200kw than my Taycan.

Also, a Taycan does 270, so I would call 250 "near as fast".

And I wish the 20kw were the issue. I don't even need 250. I smile like a fool when I get >200kw and it maintains it for more than 30 seconds. It's not the car. It's EA. I know. Doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, it's not a very reliably option for road trips.

Heck, I would even take it if I had a guaranteed 150kw. Often EA stalls are entirely dead, refuse to start, or throttle down to something painful like 40kw. (I seem to get ~40kw surprisingly frequently, does anybody know if that's some sort of magic number?)

When big companies like VW, Ford, GM and premium brands like Porsche sign up for EA, and promise you "free and pain-free charging with you EA subscription", as a customer you rightfully expect that they maybe thought that through. And you expect them to impose quality and scale milestones on EA. The recent shift to all NACS must be galling to Ford, GM etc., so you KNOW that there's no end in sight to the EA pain. I just hope Porsche jumps off the sinking ship and joins NACS sooner rather than later. The better, slimmer connector would be the icing on the cake.

To be clear, even with this experience I wouldn't necessarily buy a Tesla if I got a "do-over". Nor is a Tesla necessarily in my future. But I do think it's important to share real world experiences so that others that are shopping for their first EV or considering switching from Tesla can get a better signal. Even if only to inform options: if the car is relegated to cruising around in the city, do you still want the battery+? etc.
 

simcity

Well-Known Member
First Name
Sean
Joined
May 22, 2022
Threads
29
Messages
1,036
Reaction score
892
Location
Suffolk, UK
Vehicles
'23 Taycan Turbo, Eletre R (on order)
Country flag
The UK is La king that roll out big time with many nice routes and places, totally lack of chargers unfortunately. Hope it will improve soon.
There’s been a big push in the numbers of rapid sites in the UK in the last 18 months especially. The DNOs are having a hard time keeping up with energising them.

See live map below from one of the members at SpeakEV:

UK Charging Hubs with 5 or More CCS Rapid Chargers
 

simcity

Well-Known Member
First Name
Sean
Joined
May 22, 2022
Threads
29
Messages
1,036
Reaction score
892
Location
Suffolk, UK
Vehicles
'23 Taycan Turbo, Eletre R (on order)
Country flag
Again in the UK I’ve lifted a list of Gridserve charging hubs sites that have opened in 2023 or are variously under construction and waiting energisation..

Electric Super Hub locations already opened in 2023:
Moto Blyth (A1(M))
Moto Cherwell Valley (M40)
Cornwall Services (A30)
Moto Ferrybridge (M62/A1(M))
Moto Grantham (A1)
Moto Leeming Bar (A1(M))
Moto Pease Pottage (M23)
Moto Reading (W) (23/12)
Solstice Park (A303)
Abbey Retail Park St Ives (A14)
Dobbies Swindon
Moto Washington North A1(M)
Moto Washington South A1(M)
Roadchef Watford Gap North (M1)
Roadchef Watford Gap South (M1)
Moto Grantham (A1) - extension
Moto Scotch Corner (A1)

Electric Super Hub locations awaiting energisation or in construction (in alphabetical order):
Roadchef Annandale Water (A74(M))
Roadchef Bothwell (M74)
Moto Cardiff West (M4)
Roadchef Chester (M56)
Moto Chieveley (M4)
Roadchef Clacket Lane East (M25)
Roadchef Clacket Lane West (M25)
Roadchef Durham (A1(M))
Dobbies Edinburgh
Moto Exeter (M5) - extension
Moto Frankley Southbound (M5)
GRIDSERVE Electric Forecourt® London Gatwick Airport
Dobbies Gloucester
Moto Hilton Park North (M6)
Roadchef Killington Lake (M6)
Kingsway Retail Park, Derby
Moto Kinross (M90)
Moto Lancaster Northbound (M6)
Moto Lancaster Southbound (M6)
Dobbies Leicester
Dobbies Liverpool
Moto Medway East (M2)
Moto Medway West (M2)
Monkswood Retail Park, Stevenage
Moorlands Centre, Lincoln
Roadchef Northampton North (M1)
Priory Fields Retail Park, Taunton
Roadchef Sandbach North (M6)
Roadchef Sandbach South (M6)
The Slough Retail Park, Slough
Dobbies Stockton
Roadchef Strensham North (M5)
Moto Tamworth (M42)
Teals Farm Shop (A303)
 
 




Top