thenaimis

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Some of you probably know that last week Texas (and indeed a good chunk of the USA) was subjected to a major winter storm. I think it hit Texas particularly hard because set up the electrical grid here to be free from US federal regulations.

Well, I was one of those millions of people without power for an extended period. From 2am Monday through around 8pm Thursday (a total of around 113 hours), I was without power except on one occasion where the city gave us power for around 40 minutes. The inside temperature got down to the low 40s (F, or around 4C) and the outside was in the low 20s (-6C), and my water pipes froze up as well. The pipes took me two days to unfreeze successfully the first time. Only a few minutes to unfreeze the second time.

The Taycan (for those of you wondering when I'd get around to being on topic) helped provide electricity to charge my phone, and also the camera battery I used to take the photo in the location thread. A quick summary of points now that I've already rambled a bit:
  • The SoC at the start of all this was around 65%. It got down around 55% by the end of the week, after charging my phone multiple times.
  • The majority of the drop in the car battery charge wasn't due to charging the phone, it was mostly due to having the heat on. If I had the cabin heat on, I could watch the SoC tick down. But if I had the radio on, seat heater on mid and the phone charging via the 12V supply (I don't have a C-to-C cable), the impact on the car battery charge was negligible
  • I did on occasion get prompted to switch users or log in as guest, but just switching to my usual user account allowed me to proceed to use the car as normal
  • I even fired up the connect app at one point for no particular reason other than to see if it still worked, and it did.
  • The 12V rated battery stayed at a pretty consistent 13.5V the entire week, at least for all the time that I was in the car
  • phone charging sessions varied in length from 30 minutes to 2 hours, depending on how bored I got and how much I wanted to charge the phone.
Anyway, during this politics-induced disaster, the car helped keep me warm and my phone charged, which I think can be added to its list of merits.





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Spd_Tkt

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Thanks for sharing your experience. It is a good reminder that the Taycan has a lot of energy storage. I am glad to see that you were able to use a small amount of energy to both recharge your smartphone and activate the cabin heater for warmth and survival.
 

Mike in CA

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Glad to hear that you made it through the disaster in decent and that your Taycan helped out a little. Hopefully all of that is behind you now. Best of luck.
 

daveo4EV

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for those adventurous enough to try - a 12V 1500watt invert could/may provide AC power from the main battery

I know this works for my bolt - steps are:

1. attach a 12V AC interter to the jumper posts on the Taycan
2. turn on the vehicle - so that’s is alive and will “back charge” the 12V battery/bus from the main battery
3. turn on the inverter - plug modest load into the inverter - I wouldn’t push it hard
4. leave the Taycan on and turn off the main AC and any electronics you’re not using - just have the car “on” and running minimal stuff - most of the draw at this point should be the 12V inverter

I once ran our fridge and some devices for about 14 hours this way from my Bolt - used about 20 kWh from the “main” battery but it kept the 12V battery running

not sure this is a good idea, in fact it’s probably a bad idea, but if one is in desparate times it might be a method to “tap” 83 kwh of goodness locked up inside the Taycan’s main battery.
 

NC_Taycan

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What would be helpful would be to know the output capacity of the DC-DC converter that powers the 12V subsystem. It has a limit. A 1500W inverter would require about 140A (at an optimistic 90% efficiency for the inverter). That's way more than all the Taycan's 12V systems require and than recharging the 12V battery requires. I'm not saying it can't provide that much juice, just that it would be handy to know so we could figure out how much you could use in this situation.

Now let's say you could provide 1500W, at 90% efficiency in the Taycan's DC-DC converter, the HV battery could provide that power at full load for 45 hours.
 

daveo4EV

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yeah -there was a video circulating done by a tech walk through with Chevy Bolt Engineers - it was confirmed the 12V DC/DC converter could handle 1750 watts - it was awesome.
 

JimBob

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Maybe you can address that diatribe by Scotty Kilmer on his YouTube channel. So how do us folks in Northern climates like Minnesota, Canada, Norway, Sweden etc. survive?

Normally he's pretty good, but had an attack of the dumbs here. Unlike the Boy Scouts you weren't prepared.
 

daveo4EV

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keep in mind just cause you have 1500 watt inverter doesn’t mean you have to use 1500 watts - just running some AC USB 18 watt chargers via this setup could be super nice - also I’ve learned over the years refrigerators can use 1200 watts, but mostly they don’t…

any ways it’s an option again for extreme circumstance…not recommended daily use type of thing - but rather a better option than not having power.
 
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thenaimis

thenaimis

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  • Thread starter
  • Thread Starter
  • #9
I am glad to see that you were able to use a small amount of energy to both recharge your smartphone and activate the cabin heater for warmth and survival.
To clarify, I turned off cabin heat when I saw how fast it was draining the battery, in favor of using the seat heater alone, which, coupled with my heavy clothing, was more than enough to be comfortable, and didn't drain the battery anywhere near as fast.
for those adventurous enough to try - a 12V 1500watt invert could/may provide AC power from the main battery
I did borrow a neighbor's 500W inverter (I think that's what it was rated at), and used it to charge my camera battery just enough to get 5 shots before it ran out of juice again. I wasn't super keen on standing in the sub freezing temperatures trying to fiddle with my camera, and using the inverter at the time was an experiment that I didn't need any more data for at the time, when survival was much more important, so I left it at that.

Same shot as posted in the location thread, but with better editing.
Image Pasted at 2021-2-23 09-53.png
 

powderpc

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You missed your one shot at doing easy donuts in a parking lot in Texas. I also lost power but I realized the etron has an internet connection so we turned that into our router/living room.

When the Ossiaco inverter/charger launches you’ll be able to easily turn your vehicle into a backup home generator to keep your essential appliances running. Buy it with a small solar install and you’ll get a nice tax credit. Lucid is doing the same thing but who knows when that will be available.
 

daveo4EV

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You missed your one shot at doing easy donuts in a parking lot in Texas. I also lost power but I realized the etron has an internet connection so we turned that into our router/living room.

When the Ossiaco inverter/charger launches you’ll be able to easily turn your vehicle into a backup home generator to keep your essential appliances running. Buy it with a small solar install and you’ll get a nice tax credit. Lucid is doing the same thing but who knows when that will be available.
yeah it's harder than that…

there is _NO EASY_ way to power your home without putting in an automatic transfer switch. the main problem is the electrical connection between your home and the grid has _NO FLOW_ control - if the grid is down and you are providing power from your home (via solar or battery or generator) your power source will attempt to power the entire sub-grid of your neighborhood because there is NO flow control - to run a power generation source you must _1ST_ isolate your home from the main power grid - either manually or with an automated cut-off switch…

if you attempt to power your home with out first isolating it from the main power gird there are several problems with this:
  • your generation source is unlikely to meet demand will cause the mother of all brownouts
    • this may also damage your power generation source
  • it's not safe for people working on the grid because it's now electrified
  • your home is unlikely to receive most of the power
in order for any of these fantasy "I'm going to use my vehicle to power my home" plans to become reality you must also install a grid-transfer-cut-off switch - a grid transfer cut-off switch does a few things:
  • when the grid goes down it automatically "isolates" your home from the grid - you are disconnected
  • it monitors the power flow so it knowns how much power needs to be provided based on home demand
  • and once you home is isolated the power generation source in you home (on the right "side" of the cutoff switch) will provide power to your home, but not your entire neighborhood.
  • _IF_ you have solar panels it can also keep your solar inverters online so that your home can be powered by your Solar panels saving your battery/generator for times when there is no sunlight
    • also can charge the batteries if there is excess solar power
I have contacted https://dcbel.ossiaco.com/#whydcbel and asked them about their system - they seem reasonably clueless about the need for a cut-off switch for any grid-tied usage in North America. I'm unaware of any utility that will approve/allow an interconnect without a cut-off so that you home does not back feed into the neighborhood grid when the grid is down…with out this "bit" of techology their solution is wanting and good luck getting approval from your local power company to hook it up…

also there is the small matter of none of the vehicles being produced or sold today have the bi-directional power support in their charging software/hardware - and good luck getting Porsche to sign off on a battery warranty if you're also using your Taycan as a power source for your home…

grid-tied-solar cuts off when the grid goes down because of lack of a transfer switch and grid disconnect, because the power companies don't want the grid powered while they are working the lines to restore power…

talk to me again when someone has the following:
  • a whole home power monitor for power distirbution
  • solar inverter control
  • automatic grid isolation when the main power grid is down
  • bi-directional power from large EV batteries (at least 25 kW - about 100 amps @ 240 volts)
  • an actual EV from a manufacture that supports this.
In the mean time there are a few companies providing this type of functionality for grid-tied solar that you can use when the grid is down with battery storage - Tesla Powerwalls do this, and Enphase, SolarEdge - all of these systems installed in North America "insert" a power-gateway-cutoff-switch - between the power meter (main home feed) and the main breaker box - the job of the gateway is the "rapid-automatic-grid-isolation"…with out this flow control in place you got nothing…and no utility will approve your installation.

and since most homes were not built with this sort of system in mind - a majority of the cost for a whole home backup/solar/battery/generator setup is the rewiring of the home's main power supply to "insert" one of these smart gateways between the power source (grid) and the home's main breaker panel - there is also some potential rework to isolate circuits from being backed up if you don't want to use precious battery/generator power say to power a decorative water feature…or your basement heated floor…

there is lot more to it than OSSICO is indicating. -but their system appears to be a at least one part of the equation but not the whole solution.
 
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daveo4EV

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when I talked to the OSSIACO people - I asked if their "Tempo" technology was the "cut-off" to isolate the home from the grid - they replied "no" - and that they do not intend to isolate the home from the grid even during an outage

I'm not an expert and I might be wrong - but having done solar for over 15 years, and home power generation (generators & batteries for at least 5 years) - it's my understanding grid-isolation is a requirement for all residential home _IF_ you intend to use your generation sources during grid outage…we'll see…

they have the correct drawing - you just need a cut off switch between the "utility grid" and "breaker panel" - that unfortunately is part of the "expensive" part of any home backup solution…

Tesla is the closest to doing this - they have:
  • over a million batteries (vehicles) with software they control
    • firmware update to allow "back feed" power…???
  • wifi controlled home EV chargers to "enable/disable" vehicle to home power
    • the EVSE is just a switch - all EVSE's to date are one way (home to car) - wanna bet the Gen3 wall chargers can do bidirectional with a firmware update?
    • Gen3 Tesla Wall Chargers have wifi, firmware, and are 60 amps
    • seems like an easy software up date to have these "talk" to a Powerwall gateway
    • 60 amp back feed is 12 kW of power to the home…more than enough during an outage
  • Powerwall gateways which can do the necessary orchestration
    • Tesla already has experience and the device in production and in the field doing this - and they control the firmware of that device also…
  • Tesla already has "some" control over not charging the EV unless there is surplus power when on battery power (disconnected from the grid)
    • this is an existing shipping feature for Tesla vehicles & Powerwall customers - don't charge my Tesla if my batteries are "below 75%"...

Screen Shot 2021-02-23 at 10.54.53 AM.png


I estimate 7 years…this will be a thing - 2 year for the Tesla fleet - and they will be selling their installed base "Powerwall" gateways, Tesla Gen3 wall chargers - but no Powerwall batteries - just use your car as the battery - Tesla is having trouble providing residential batteries anyways - big back log - just use their cars which they are churring out at like 450,000 units a year…

Tesla is the closest to having a commercial system that could actually work - since they control all the moving parts - vertical integration for the win.

I'm thinking a $4999 "home energy" upgrade for Model 3/Model Y owner - where Tesla installs a Powerwall gateway, 1 or 2 Gen2 WiFi chargers and then you can "enable" home backup on your Model 3/Model Y is a pretty good service/upgrade…Tesla can almost do it today - and their customers would line up to give them $5000 for this feature - especially in California/Texas given recent experience.
 
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daveo4EV

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Words you will never hear or read…
Porsche today released an OTA update to enable their existing EV owners to support vehicle to home power for black outs and home power management and cost control. "The combination of our existing battery fleet and the Porsche Home Energy manger provide powerful solution for our EV enabled customers to provide high performance driving and home energy security. It's one more way in which Porsche is embracing our clean future and providing our customers with outstanding value for their vehicle purchase" said Clause VonDePower head of Porsche's vehicle energy management division.
:CWL:
 
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Hm. I’m not exactly sure what you’re saying because the technical details are not my domain. However, I’ve seen that Lucid and Hyundai both have intentions of allowing you to power reasonably high external AC loads from your car. Lucid with their “Wunderbox” and Hyundai with V2L ports that allow up to 3.6 Kw.

For example, you can already run a goal zero system like this that seems like a simplified powerwall. So I’m not exactly sure what the technical problem is but it seems like these solutions are already being installed and running a load from the car batteries shouldn’t be that technically difficult as you put it. The exercise here is to generate backup power for your critical applications.

https://www.goalzero.com/shop/solar-kits/home-energy-storage-kits/

Are you saying these systems wouldn’t work
 

daveo4EV

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they work fine - but you have to install a grid-cut-off switch if you intend to use them with your grid-tied home - if you are powering your home with ANY source of power (generator/battery) and you do not disconnect yourself from the grid while it’s down - most utitlity companies frown on that type of setup - and it’s dangerous to the workers, and the neighborhood’s power demands will overwhelm your power source causing it to brown out…

the real cost of these system is reworking the average residential home to have this cut off…

Hyundai’s V2L is an ac outlet in the car that you can use to power things - it’s not powering your home.

Bidirectional charging
But that’s not all. The Hyundai Ioniq 5’s best feature is its vehicle-to-load charging feature. In normal people speak, the V2L feature is a type of bidirectional charging which lets drivers recharge or power other electronics like ebikes, laptops, TVs, fridges, and so on, directly from the vehicle.

There’s a plug socket inside the vehicle for smaller electronics, and an adaptor outside that can be used in the car’s regular charge port to power pretty much anything — well, as long as it doesn’t draw more than 3.6 kW of power.

It’s not vehicle-to-grid charging, so you can’t power your home from this, but it’s close.
it’s not just a matter of plugging your EV into your home with a bi-directional charger - you must REWORK the home’s entire electrical system to support this

Lucid is not shipping any products - talk to me when you can actually purchase a vehicle and someone’s done this with their residential home built in the 1970’s, 1980’s or really ever…

I don’t know about europe - but in north america 99.9999% percent of residential homes will need to spend at least a few thousand $$$ to rework their electical system to have an automatic cut off switch…there is NO plug & play solution - and a bi-directional charger is just one part of the puzzel but not the entire solution.

now AC power from the car that you can plug things into - that’s great, easy, fun and so forth - but that’s not powering your HOME - that’s powering devices you choose to plug into your car.
 

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