Scared to ask... anyone tempted by Model S Plaid?

jimithing

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Randy is a driver for Unplugged Performance, not Tesla/Elon and if you listen to him, he appreciates many cars, not just Tesla's, he's obviously impressed with the Plaid.



100%... not sure how one can justify the Plaid over the base S. 0-60 of 3.1s is more than fast enough.

Speaking of fast enough... the Porsche Bugatti/Rimac announcement today was extremely exciting. Hope Rimac improves Porsche tech.
Unplugged Performance's business is 100% dependent on Tesla so it's a distinction without a difference.

I'm familiar with Randy since long before he did anything with Tesla. I'm not knocking Randy; it's just the reality of the business situation.
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Scandinavian

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I have read this from the beginning now and am a bit amazed at some of the comments. Why are people not more appreciative of the development Tesla have done. I do not think any other manufacturer is even close to the overall usability of a Tesla. Yes I own a Model3 performance and a Taycan Turbo and could make a comparison. But the Turbo is 3 times the price of the Tesla!!

And then you read the result of some of the racing going on in Japan! Three out of four races the Taycan starts like a rocket only to be passed by the Model3 Unplugged and in one race even a nearly stock Model3. The fourth race it did not even turn up for the race? And here are all the praise for the race bred Taycan and Porsche heritage. BS! Only to see the car good for half the race or 25 km’s!! The same has happened to people trying two laps of Nürburgring. First lap ok then throttling.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-crushes-porsche-taycan-turbo-s-3x-track-video/

I am not contemplating a model S plaid just because it can accelerate faster than almost any car, no interest in these bragging rights, but I think Tesla deserves more respect as a company that has changed the automobile industry forever.
 

Arismaster

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I have read this from the beginning now and am a bit amazed at some of the comments. Why are people not more appreciative of the development Tesla have done. I do not think any other manufacturer is even close to the overall usability of a Tesla. Yes I own a Model3 performance and a Taycan Turbo and could make a comparison. But the Turbo is 3 times the price of the Tesla!!

And then you read the result of some of the racing going on in Japan! Three out of four races the Taycan starts like a rocket only to be passed by the Model3 Unplugged and in one race even a nearly stock Model3. The fourth race it did not even turn up for the race? And here are all the praise for the race bred Taycan and Porsche heritage. BS! Only to see the car good for half the race or 25 km’s!! The same has happened to people trying two laps of Nürburgring. First lap ok then throttling.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-crushes-porsche-taycan-turbo-s-3x-track-video/

I am not contemplating a model S plaid just because it can accelerate faster than almost any car, no interest in these bragging rights, but I think Tesla deserves more respect as a company that has changed the automobile industry forever.
I have read this from the beginning now and am a bit amazed at some of the comments. Why are people not more appreciative of the development Tesla have done. I do not think any other manufacturer is even close to the overall usability of a Tesla. Yes I own a Model3 performance and a Taycan Turbo and could make a comparison. But the Turbo is 3 times the price of the Tesla!!

And then you read the result of some of the racing going on in Japan! Three out of four races the Taycan starts like a rocket only to be passed by the Model3 Unplugged and in one race even a nearly stock Model3. The fourth race it did not even turn up for the race? And here are all the praise for the race bred Taycan and Porsche heritage. BS! Only to see the car good for half the race or 25 km’s!! The same has happened to people trying two laps of Nürburgring. First lap ok then throttling.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-crushes-porsche-taycan-turbo-s-3x-track-video/

I am not contemplating a model S plaid just because it can accelerate faster than almost any car, no interest in these bragging rights, but I think Tesla deserves more respect as a company that has changed the automobile industry forever.

Tesla has got huge respect and you can see that on their share price and their market capitalization.
No one can disagree that they have been revolutionary

On the other hand super acceleration is only one selling point for Tesla but they aren’t really up there with Porsche and the likes in areas like design, quality of materials, driving dynamics, steering, braking and brand prestige.
The same way that Taycan’s new infotainment and autopilot is a really good effort but way behind than Tesla’s.

It’s not either or just different car propositions for different audiences.

Of course us Taycan owners we don’t have Netflix, virtual fireplace and farts in our cars but I guess we can live without them…
 

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I have read this from the beginning now and am a bit amazed at some of the comments. Why are people not more appreciative of the development Tesla have done. I do not think any other manufacturer is even close to the overall usability of a Tesla.
Maybe because of "unrepairable" cars coming out of the factory?
 

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Maybe because of "unrepairable" cars coming out of the factory?
Can't tell if you're just trying to be funny.

But I'd add 2 things:

- customer service/support folks or any other customer interaction say a lot of things to shortcut to the solution they want to propose. eg. it might be easier to make this customer wait for a new car and use this car for something else.
- cars can have manufacturing issues that are so costly to repair and/or just carry too much risk/interrupt the flow too much, that it is indeed cheaper for the OEM to remove the most expensive parts and scrap the rest (for tesla, that would likely be: remove the battery pack and computers). I've seen this on assembly plants of Toyota and BMW for ICE vehicles, wouldn't surprise me if this is just common across the industry. EVs probably make that more common, since more of the value is in 2-3 easy to remove components.
 

im85288

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@Scandinavian I would be really interested in hearing your opinions on the Tesla M3P vs Taycan Turbo…as I’m in the midst of waiting for a CT4S to replace my M3P.

Apart from the Software/AutoPilot another thing I think Tesla deserves credit for in my opinion is how they have brought things like servicing the car into the modern ages. Traditionally when ever I had an issue with an ICE car i would need to ring up the garage, then take the car in to be assessed..then if needed wait for parts..then finally get the car back.

Last week my M3P was not charging, I opened the app and booked in a service appointment (which was to be someone coming to my house to look at it). Within a day I got a call from Tesla asking me to attempt charging again and to email then with the exact time so that they could remotely look at the logs to see if they could diagnose the problem. Surely enough with the info I gave them they decided the car needed to come into the service centre and they had ordered the required parts.

That was fantastic customer service and I really hope the larger more established manufacturers start to modernise their approach to using software.

ps. This was announced the other day: https://www.lotuscars.com/en-GB/model/emira and has me contemplating going back to an ICE car one last time! At 60K it surely is a bargain.
 

kailifish

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I have read this from the beginning now and am a bit amazed at some of the comments. Why are people not more appreciative of the development Tesla have done. I do not think any other manufacturer is even close to the overall usability of a Tesla. Yes I own a Model3 performance and a Taycan Turbo and could make a comparison. But the Turbo is 3 times the price of the Tesla!!

And then you read the result of some of the racing going on in Japan! Three out of four races the Taycan starts like a rocket only to be passed by the Model3 Unplugged and in one race even a nearly stock Model3. The fourth race it did not even turn up for the race? And here are all the praise for the race bred Taycan and Porsche heritage. BS! Only to see the car good for half the race or 25 km’s!! The same has happened to people trying two laps of Nürburgring. First lap ok then throttling.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-crushes-porsche-taycan-turbo-s-3x-track-video/

I am not contemplating a model S plaid just because it can accelerate faster than almost any car, no interest in these bragging rights, but I think Tesla deserves more respect as a company that has changed the automobile industry forever.

I came across the same article too about the Japan EV GP, very interested in this. After reading several articles on how the Taycan's performance stays consistent after many launches compared to the Tesla during multiple drag races. Are track performances different? So after 25km, Tesla actually throttles less than the Taycan? Or is it because it was a Turbo S, and results wouldve been different if it was say RWD, or 4S? (edit: why would throttling on drag differ from throttling on the track) ?

Either way, I can understand some of the negative comments/sentiments towards Tesla, since there is this feeling that they "hacked" or "cheated" the car industry, and that notion may irk car enthusiasts the wrong way. Everyones entitled to their own opinions, but gotta pay respect where it's due.
 

feye

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Can't tell if you're just trying to be funny.

But I'd add 2 things:

- customer service/support folks or any other customer interaction say a lot of things to shortcut to the solution they want to propose. eg. it might be easier to make this customer wait for a new car and use this car for something else.
How does that make anything better?

- cars can have manufacturing issues that are so costly to repair and/or just carry too much risk/interrupt the flow too much, that it is indeed cheaper for the OEM to remove the most expensive parts and scrap the rest (for tesla, that would likely be: remove the battery pack and computers). I've seen this on assembly plants of Toyota and BMW for ICE vehicles, wouldn't surprise me if this is just common across the industry. EVs probably make that more common, since more of the value is in 2-3 easy to remove components.
Do you have a link? I googled, 0 articles about waste in German car factories. This is the only one on waste I found:

"Business Insider berichtet über einen „irrsinnigen“ Verschleiß von Rohmaterial und Geld bei der Produktion von Teslas neuem Elektroauto Model 3. Bis zu 40 Prozent der für die Batterie und den Antrieb eingesetzten Bauteile müssten verschrottet oder überarbeitet werden, bevor"

>>Business Insider reports "insane" wear and tear on raw materials and money in the production of Tesla's new Model 3 electric car, saying up to 40 percent of the components used for the battery and powertrain would have to be scrapped or reworked before<<

The problem is, once the SM AI thinks you like EVs you get an endless stream of T fanboy garbage. If you really want to understand what is going on, you have to google for it in a new browser without being logged in to any SM account...
 

JustLooking

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@Scandinavian I would be really interested in hearing your opinions on the Tesla M3P vs Taycan Turbo…as I’m in the midst of waiting for a CT4S to replace my M3P.
I really recommend you go drive one. I wanted to do the same, until I drove the Taycan. Only you will know if it's the right move.

This was announced the other day: https://www.lotuscars.com/en-GB/model/emira and has me contemplating going back to an ICE car one last time! At 60K it surely is a bargain.
I ordered one, but won't be my daily driver. I still prefer Tesla for day-to-day. Very excited to get the Emira though!
 

fullmetalbaal

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How does that make anything better?
For two reasons:
(1) an actual technical problem/design issue/manufacturing issue would be more problematic than customer service idiots. (IMHO)
(2) customer service folks being lazy/uninformed/greedy isn't a Tesla specialty. That's been true for most industries and companies, especially the car industry and including Porsche. Just go through these threads and see how many folks come to ask about something dumb/misleading a dealer/representative/etc. said. My 911 has a misaligned lower right portion of the dash. It's noticeable. I got the standard "it's totally normal/within spec, go look at other 911s" and "it's handmade, there will be variations". I looked at other 911s, and mine is definitely an outlier. I decided that it wasn't worth the chance that they'd mess the car up even worse (eg scuff leather etc.) and that I'd live with it... but the standard "this is within spec" is something that you'll see a lot. This is why I think telemetry + apps that warn the user is the way to go, and why I'm glad EVs have magnitudes fewer parts that can break.
I bet almost anybody who's had a number of cars over a number of years will have dealt with that.

(caveat: speaking from the US perspective here, it's possible things are entirely different in other countries)

Do you have a link? I googled, 0 articles about waste in German car factories. This is the only one on waste I found:

"Business Insider berichtet über einen „irrsinnigen“ Verschleiß von Rohmaterial und Geld bei der Produktion von Teslas neuem Elektroauto Model 3. Bis zu 40 Prozent der für die Batterie und den Antrieb eingesetzten Bauteile müssten verschrottet oder überarbeitet werden, bevor"

>>Business Insider reports "insane" wear and tear on raw materials and money in the production of Tesla's new Model 3 electric car, saying up to 40 percent of the components used for the battery and powertrain would have to be scrapped or reworked before<<

The problem is, once the SM AI thinks you like EVs you get an endless stream of T fanboy garbage. If you really want to understand what is going on, you have to google for it in a new browser without being logged in to any SM account...
No link - personal experience.
Toyota - visited NUMMI back when it was Toyota joint venture as part of course work for college. The way they dealt with issues discovered in QC was explicitly part of it, and there was a specific example mentioned too (I think it was something to do with seat belts and Corollas being scrapped -- but it's been decades, I might be misremembering the details of the example).

BMW - visited BMWs Munich plant as part of Euro delivery of my M3 (highly recommended btw: Euro delivery, plant tour, and the E92 M3 :) ). They had similar stuff going on.

I'm sure there's other folks here with more/better personal experience that can corroborate or inform us that things have changed or my memory is faulty. :)

I'm not trying to say Tesla is perfect. Just pointing out that "unrepairable" might just mean "economic gain of repair is smaller than economic cost". This might be out-of-band repair costs and disruption to the flow, risks/liability of a repair, image/perception aspects of shipping a repaired vehicle, etc. - who knows. This point is likely easier to reach for a cheaper car that is manufactured en-masse (eg a base Macan, a model 3) than for an expensive one or one that is more highly customized (say a Taycan Turbo S, or Model S Plaid).

Waste is not unusual, nor would it surprise me if waste is worse for new companies, new plants, new models/processes, while they are still being optimized. None of that is malicious - and it's hard to say anything about one report without knowing anything about what exactly was measured, how it was measured, and what industry benchmarks look like.

As an aside, it's been killing me how much provably wrong stuff the media has been writing, how little research they do, how little actual discussion takes place. So much FUD, so much hyping and click-baiting, so little actual facts and useful opinions/trade-offs. And yes, that's especially true for Tesla coverage, but general EV coverage as well. I can't tell if it's because of greed, incompetence, resistance to change, or all of the above.
 
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Scandinavian

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@Scandinavian I would be really interested in hearing your opinions on the Tesla M3P vs Taycan Turbo…as I’m in the midst of waiting for a CT4S to replace my M3P.

Apart from the Software/AutoPilot another thing I think Tesla deserves credit for in my opinion is how they have brought things like servicing the car into the modern ages. Traditionally when ever I had an issue with an ICE car i would need to ring up the garage, then take the car in to be assessed..then if needed wait for parts..then finally get the car back.

Last week my M3P was not charging, I opened the app and booked in a service appointment (which was to be someone coming to my house to look at it). Within a day I got a call from Tesla asking me to attempt charging again and to email then with the exact time so that they could remotely look at the logs to see if they could diagnose the problem. Surely enough with the info I gave them they decided the car needed to come into the service centre and they had ordered the required parts.

That was fantastic customer service and I really hope the larger more established manufacturers start to modernise their approach to using software.

ps. This was announced the other day: https://www.lotuscars.com/en-GB/model/emira and has me contemplating going back to an ICE car one last time! At 60K it surely is a bargain.
I can give you some hints of what my experience has been. My model 3P is now 2 years and a bit in age and has just under 20k km on the clock.

As I have said before it is really not fair to compare these two cars, the Taycan is 3 times the price of my Model3P. And I am aware of that Tesla have improved the Model3 a lot compared to the previous model S. The seats are quite comfortable and it is an easy car to live with.

If you are used to the Tesla, you will find a few things worse in the Taycan and a few things much better. There is no doubt that the Taycan is a much more pleasant car to drive! The suspension (air vs stell springs), steering feel, road holding are such a pleasure. And the Taycan is so quiet and comfortable. Road noise, tyre noise even if I have the 21 inch wheels.

From a practicality point of view the Tesla wins, easier to park in tight spots here, smalller foot print, better back up camera, side view cameras, Sentry mode, dashcam mode, remote controls of most functions, charging starts or settings for departure time etc etc. And not to mention the charging network, where Tesla is absolutely superb around where I live and normally travel. The navigation system is snappy and the chargers are clearly indicated with available places. And you just plug in and charge, no faffing around with apps, qr code readers or charge cards. It just works. The navigator is good in M3 and preconditions battery as well. It is also very easy to set the charging start or departure time with percentage charge in the Tesla, which is a bit more complicated in the Taycan. Oh and the desired charge level works in the Tesla independent of using AC or DC charging.

And I have found that both cars give me nearly exactly the same range in use. If I use the Taycan for a trip I use the same percentage of the battery as I will in the Taycan. The Taycan battery is some 20 to 25 % larger in capacity. But it also is “”thirstier””. And I live at 550 meter above sea level and drive down to the coats on a regular basis. Both cars give me 400 km range in reality. I never look at the GOM but use %. And both cars predict the % state of charge at destination quite accurately, never had an issue with that.

I hardly ever use Range mode since I find that the aircon is not up to standard, and I do not want this non comfort. It is quite warm here in the summer with typical temperatures in summer around 30 degrees C.

The navigation in the Tesla gives me much better overview of the traffic situation than the Taycan. But I use Google maps with CarPlay all the time in Taycan. Only time I try to use the Porsche navigator i when on a longer trip and I need precondition the battery.

Build quality in my Tesla has been ok, not up to European standards, but one of the best I have seen for a US produced car. I have no panel gaps or other issues. Paint is not as well covering as the Taycan, but the Taycan had a hell of a lot of Orange Peel instead.

Sorry if this got much longer than expected, but both cars are well worth having. They are both fun to drive and practical to use. But comparing them is not fair, it will be like comparing a BMW Z4 with a Porsche 991!

I really hope you will be happy with your Taycan!
 

Mr.Smith

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I've been driving EVs for 20 years, been through all the growing pains, driven just about every one.

I've helped sell many Teslas and other EVs. When anyone is looking to get an EV, I tell them to remove the drive train, then ask yourself what you think about the machine
.
We are all heavily seduced by the speed, torque, lack of shifting & turbo lag. So much that we forget about the other elements of a car.

I've driven every Tesla, was buying an S & 3 because in early 2018 it, was the only EV & light years ahead of every OEM.
After this exercise of drive train removal, the S was maybe a $40k car, the 3 a $18k car.
Do I want to go on a date in a plastic, no door handle, plastic seats, loud road noise, rattling toy? No matter how fast it launches, the answer was no. Especially when I'm paying 2x what it's worth, then having to get on Twitter to beg someone to help me fix it.
That was an insult!


If I want speed, I can get a civic, mod it to be as fast as I want and make it handle like a slot car. Speed has become commoditized, who cares.

Taycan Turbo will most likely be my next car. Imo it's $40k over priced, but it's a sexy ass car, I love many parts of it, regardless of drive train. It's a premium I would be willing to pay for the costly battery pack.
 
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fullmetalbaal

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I've been driving EVs for 20 years, been through all the growing pains, driven just about every one.

I've helped sell many Teslas and other EVs. When anyone is looking to get an EV, I tell them to remove the drive train, then ask yourself what you think about the machine
.
We are all heavily seduced by the speed, torque, lack of shifting & turbo lag. So much that we forget about the other elements of a car.

I've driven every Tesla, was buying an S & 3 because in early 2018 it, was the only EV &
light years ahead of every OEM.
After this exercise of drive train removal, the S was maybe a $40k car, the 3 a $18k car.
Do I want to go on a date in a plastic, no door handle, plastic seats, loud road noise, rattling toy? No matter how fast it launches, the answer was no. Especially when I'm paying 2x what it's worth, then having to get on Twitter to beg someone to help me fix it.
That was an insult!


If I want speed, I can get a civic, mod it to be as fast as I want and make it handle like a slot car. Speed has become commoditized, who cares.

Taycan Turbo will most likely be my next car. Imo it's $40k over priced, but it's a sexy ass car, I love many parts of it, regardless of drive train. It's a premium I would be willing to pay for the costly battery pack.
A good drive train has been one of the primary selection criteria for myself and I bet many (hopefully most - but I guess not anymore, given where the majority of the sales come from nowadays) other Porsche drivers - "take the drive train out of the equation" feels odd.

I don't see why in 2021 I should have to make a trade-off between good interior fit and finish and good software, when I'm spending >100K on a car. Porsche could have lived up to all of their promises and delivered a car with OTA, >300 miles of range, and the Porsche driving qualities we all love. Oh, and I believe they indicated 350kw charging as well. Nevermind the fact that the number of bugs in the software is beyond disappointing.

If Plaid really does deliver repeatable performance and the 0-120 mph numbers are real, then it definitely is something we should measure Porsche against. We should expect the 180K Turbo S to at least match that 130K Tesla. I also have a feeling that, if the numbers are real, the dual motor in the rear approach might turn out to be the ticket and better than having a transmission.

I'm not trying to sell you on a Tesla - I'm saying Porsche should do better.
I'm also sticking to my Taycan order, and anxiously expecting the arrival of the car - I'm just not 10/10 happy with Porsche on this one.
 

manitou202

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Porsche could have lived up to all of their promises and delivered a car with OTA, >300 miles of range, and the Porsche driving qualities we all love.
Tesla is the best at software no doubt, but OTA updates are overrated. In the 2 years I owned a Model X nothing that significant was upgraded. Mostly software fixes.

in terms of range I would argue Porsche has delivered. In real world tests the Taycan is very close to the Model S, but charges much faster. It’s a better road trip vehicle than my 295 mile rated Model X which would barely hit 225 miles on the highway.

I also believe Porsche nailed the “Porsche driving experience.” Considering all EV’s are heavy, they have worked some serious magic to make the Taycan feel the way it does. That is some serious engineering.

One thing that is rarely brought up is Tesla’s are really just high volume vanilla cars.Take the Model S for example. 5 paint choices, two wheels, and three interior colors. That’s 30 combinations. FSD hardware is included on every vehicle so that is simply a software update. Compare this to Porsche who doesn’t build the exact same 911 twice. I’m willing to be it’s the same situation with the Taycan. This level of configurability is a nightmare for manufacturing but a dream for car enthusiast who want a car uniquely their own.

One of the big fears with EV’s was they were all going to feel and look the same. Who cares if they are fast if everyone is driving the same car. Not to mention if they ever get FSD to work then most won’t even be driving anymore. Tesla is headed down this path. Porsche however has kept the spirit alive by maintaining uniqueness while building a drivers car, not an IPad on wheels.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/28958...e-911-sports-cars-are-built-every-year-report
 
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