Scared to ask... anyone tempted by Model S Plaid?

[feye]

I've been driving EVs for 20 years, been through all the growing pains, driven just about every one.

Interesting - like to listen to people with much more experience!

I also really like this view. When my wife got the MS90D, I was still driving my luxury A7. Perfect car in every way, but the drive train. Over the years I often thought, this Audi all electric would be perfect! My Taycan is better in some ways but not quite as good in others. Pano, AC, range, and a few other small nags - but I love it MUCH more than my A7.

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[Mr.Smith]

Interesting - like to listen to people with much more experience!

I also really like this view. When my wife got the MS90D, I was still driving my luxury A7. Perfect car in every way, but the drive train. Over the years I often thought, this Audi all electric would be perfect! My Taycan is better in some ways but not quite as good in others. Pano, AC, range, and a few other small nags - but I love it MUCH more than my A7.

I have a Bolt EV that I love. I paid $5500, 1 pay for a 36/10k lease. The car isn't worth a penny more than that.
It's $12k toy with a slick drive train.
It surprisingly has a very nice fit/finish, gets 4.8mi/kWh so it's one of the most efficient EVs on the road.

If the Bolt had 1020hp, did the quarter mile in 8.99sec, would it be a $100k car?
Not for me.

 

[epirali]

I hardly ever use Range mode since I find that the aircon is not up to standard, and I do not want this non comfort. It is quite warm here in the summer with typical temperatures in summer around 30 degrees C.

You may already know this but there’s a setting where you can turn off the eco-setting for Aircon in range mode. I use range mode but do not use the efficiency air conditioning in range mode.

I have a Bolt EV that I love. I paid $5500, 1 pay for a 36/10k lease. The car isn't worth a penny more than that.
It's $12k toy with a slick drive train.
It surprisingly has a very nice fit/finish, gets 4.8mi/kWh so it's one of the most efficient EVs on the road.

I have to say the Bolt in sone ways is my favorite daily EV driver. the price, performance, efficiency and the quality of ride for cost can’t be beat. Being FWD its also decently capable in snow compared to something like an i3. the base Model 3 would beat it except for the RWD if you live in colder climates…

 

[Scandinavian]

You may already know this but there’s a setting where you can turn off the eco-setting for Aircon in range mode. I use range mode but do not use the efficiency air conditioning in range mode.

Thanks, Yes I am aware of that I can set the AC separately. I did not find it so useful with Range mode in general, so have just left the settings in either Sport mode or Normal mode. The car lowers anyhow when the speed is in excess of 100 km/h or so.

 

[epirali]

Thanks, Yes I am aware of that I can set the AC separately. I did not find it so useful with Range mode in general, so have just left the settings in either Sport mode or Normal mode. The car lowers anyhow when the speed is in excess of 100 km/h or so.

I find a big difference in efficiency even driving gently when in range, and I cranked my max speed to 85 mph (135 kp) in range mode limit on day one!

 

[im85288]

I can give you some hints of what my experience has been. My model 3P is now 2 years and a bit in age and has just under 20k km on the clock.

As I have said before it is really not fair to compare these two cars, the Taycan is 3 times the price of my Model3P. And I am aware of that Tesla have improved the Model3 a lot compared to the previous model S. The seats are quite comfortable and it is an easy car to live with.

If you are used to the Tesla, you will find a few things worse in the Taycan and a few things much better. There is no doubt that the Taycan is a much more pleasant car to drive! The suspension (air vs stell springs), steering feel, road holding are such a pleasure. And the Taycan is so quiet and comfortable. Road noise, tyre noise even if I have the 21 inch wheels.

From a practicality point of view the Tesla wins, easier to park in tight spots here, smalller foot print, better back up camera, side view cameras, Sentry mode, dashcam mode, remote controls of most functions, charging starts or settings for departure time etc etc. And not to mention the charging network, where Tesla is absolutely superb around where I live and normally travel. The navigation system is snappy and the chargers are clearly indicated with available places. And you just plug in and charge, no faffing around with apps, qr code readers or charge cards. It just works. The navigator is good in M3 and preconditions battery as well. It is also very easy to set the charging start or departure time with percentage charge in the Tesla, which is a bit more complicated in the Taycan. Oh and the desired charge level works in the Tesla independent of using AC or DC charging.

And I have found that both cars give me nearly exactly the same range in use. If I use the Taycan for a trip I use the same percentage of the battery as I will in the Taycan. The Taycan battery is some 20 to 25 % larger in capacity. But it also is “”thirstier””. And I live at 550 meter above sea level and drive down to the coats on a regular basis. Both cars give me 400 km range in reality. I never look at the GOM but use %. And both cars predict the % state of charge at destination quite accurately, never had an issue with that.

I hardly ever use Range mode since I find that the aircon is not up to standard, and I do not want this non comfort. It is quite warm here in the summer with typical temperatures in summer around 30 degrees C.

The navigation in the Tesla gives me much better overview of the traffic situation than the Taycan. But I use Google maps with CarPlay all the time in Taycan. Only time I try to use the Porsche navigator i when on a longer trip and I need precondition the battery.

Build quality in my Tesla has been ok, not up to European standards, but one of the best I have seen for a US produced car. I have no panel gaps or other issues. Paint is not as well covering as the Taycan, but the Taycan had a hell of a lot of Orange Peel instead.

Sorry if this got much longer than expected, but both cars are well worth having. They are both fun to drive and practical to use. But comparing them is not fair, it will be like comparing a BMW Z4 with a Porsche 991!

I really hope you will be happy with your Taycan!

Thank you very much for your detailed analysis, I think what I meant to ask really was a comparison on the acceleration between the M3P and the Turbo. I mention this because I test drove a 4S and found the acceleration a bit sluggish in comparison so I flicker between wanting a Turbo and a 4S!

It‘s a shame that software wise the Taycan is so far behind the Tesla and as you said when a car is costing more than twice as much you would expect everything to be at a much higher standard.

 

[manitou202]

It‘s a shame that software wise the Taycan is so far behind the Tesla and as you said when a car is costing more than twice as much you would expect everything to be at a much higher standard.

Porsche will never be a leader in software and user interfaces. They never have been. They also aren't the leader in luxury. In the sub-$200k price point that probably goes to Mercedes.

Tesla = best software
Mercedes = best luxury
Porsche = best driver engagement

Everyone else is a mix. The only automaker that could shake things up a bit is Lucid. They could give Tesla some serious competition when it comes to software. They will probably be very luxurious but I doubt they will surpass Mercedes, and I doubt they will surpass Porsche when it comes to driver engagement.

 

[manitou202]

Brand New Tesla Model S Plaid Breaks Down: Report
According to the video, during driving, it displayed a message on the instrument cluster: "Pull over safely, vehicle is shutting down, the electrical system is unable to support all features."
The driver reports that he had to stop in the middle of the road, the car experienced complete power shut down and even the doors wouldn't work - he had to manually open them.

The car was towed and according to the info received from Tesla, the service center ordered three parts on July 10:

• High voltage battery for Model S Plaid
• Driver airbag assembly
• RWK upper bright trim

https://insideevs.com/news/519594/new-tesla-models-plaid-broken/


I'm adding this not to put down Tesla, but point out designing complex vehicles is really hard and will come with failures. If you aren't willing to take some risk, don't buy the latest and greatest technology.

 

[Mouse House]

you can delete the word infinity if that makes you hate your neighbor less. Just getting any one is is taking 2+ years. I have worked through all vacations for 3-years and this is my investment in my vacation. Your sarcasm is toxic.

I used to work in Geneva(e), and you don't have it so bad, 4-5 weeks guaranteed vacation.....I haven't seen that in years in the U.S.. apologies if the time I have off, I want to spend with my family relaxing. Hope your snarky little 4th grade comments makes you feel better about your life. You are a wonderful and loving world-citizen and positive representation of the human race......

Very amusing - you are extremely thin-skinned as well as oblivious.

 

[JustLooking]

I'm adding this not to put down Tesla, but point out designing complex vehicles is really hard and will come with failures. If you aren't willing to take some risk, don't buy the latest and greatest technology.

What would be more interesting to me, aren't the one-offs but some statistically significant sample. For example, one Tesla or Taycan catches on fire and it's all over world news. I just pulled up the NFPA report from last year and it reads:

An estimated 212,500 vehicle fires caused 560 civilian deaths 1,500 civilian injuries; and $1.9 billion in direct property damage in the US during 2018.

There are 56 vehicles fires for every 1 billion miles driven. That doesn't even begin to account for the various vehicle malfunctions. We tend to think certain problems don't exist because we don't experience them.

Getting back to the article above, mechanical breakdown happen in all vehicles. They can be caused by driver, maintenance, electrical, mechanical or environmental factors. It's a shame when a single instance becomes headline news and FUD thrown around to justify a certain bias/preference/viewpoint. I've yet to own any car or motorcycle that hasn't had a recall of some kind. My racebike had a recall because the second gear can shatter, which thankfully it never happened to me. But I can't imagine what would happen if I were going over 100mph through a corner in second gear on the track and it shatters. That's a potentially fatal high-side.

 

[schad]

After this exercise of drive train removal, the S was maybe a $40k car, the 3 a $18k car.

That's very similar to how I felt about the Y. It felt like a top-trim Ford Escape: a pretty basic car with all the basic components upgraded. Fit and finish was pretty comparable to an Escape, too. So I'd be a little more generous and say that, sans the powertrain, it should be a roughly $30k car.

Now, the powertrain is worth something.

Tesla is the best at software no doubt, but OTA updates are overrated. In the 2 years I owned a Model X nothing that significant was upgraded. Mostly software fixes.

OTA is absolutely essential, though the reason why is probably not obvious unless you're a software engineer.

 

[JimBob]

What would be more interesting to me, aren't the one-offs but some statistically significant sample. For example, one Tesla or Taycan catches on fire and it's all over world news. I just pulled up the NFPA report from last year and it reads:



There are 56 vehicles fires for every 1 billion miles driven. That doesn't even begin to account for the various vehicle malfunctions. We tend to think certain problems don't exist because we don't experience them.

Getting back to the article above, mechanical breakdown happen in all vehicles. They can be caused by driver, maintenance, electrical, mechanical or environmental factors. It's a shame when a single instance becomes headline news and FUD thrown around to justify a certain bias/preference/viewpoint. I've yet to own any car or motorcycle that hasn't had a recall of some kind. My racebike had a recall because the second gear can shatter, which thankfully it never happened to me. But I can't imagine what would happen if I were going over 100mph through a corner in second gear on the track and it shatters. That's a potentially fatal high-side.

If referring to the Tesla

What would be more interesting to me, aren't the one-offs but some statistically significant sample. For example, one Tesla or Taycan catches on fire and it's all over world news. I just pulled up the NFPA report from last year and it reads:



There are 56 vehicles fires for every 1 billion miles driven. That doesn't even begin to account for the various vehicle malfunctions. We tend to think certain problems don't exist because we don't experience them.

Getting back to the article above, mechanical breakdown happen in all vehicles. They can be caused by driver, maintenance, electrical, mechanical or environmental factors. It's a shame when a single instance becomes headline news and FUD thrown around to justify a certain bias/preference/viewpoint. I've yet to own any car or motorcycle that hasn't had a recall of some kind. My racebike had a recall because the second gear can shatter, which thankfully it never happened to me. But I can't imagine what would happen if I were going over 100mph through a corner in second gear on the track and it shatters. That's a potentially fatal high-side.

If referring to the Tesla Model Plaid which burned up. There were about 25 on the road at the time. So 1 out of 25? It could be significant or it might not be significant. To be determined. But it is a new model and potentially more likely to have design flaws. I recall Boeing losing a few aircraft to lithium battery fires. Across the Boeing fleet, not statistically significant, but it really was. If I am going to be a guinea pig, I would like to be paid.

Using broad brush statistics with small sample sizes is just nuts.

 

[kreshi]

OTA is absolutely essential, though the reason why is probably not obvious unless you're a software engineer.

Really depends.
My Porsche dealer is 20 minutes away. When I bring my car in for a 1-3 day service or update (whatever is due) I get excited. Because I get to drive a 911 or a Cayman for a couple days for free. In the summer time I've also seen convertibles. At the end you get your car fixed and cleaned, again, for free.

We are talking about significant updates that concern drivetrain and battery.
Everything else is done through OTA already as far as I know. I've gotten plenty of updates for the navigation, surround cameras, music streaming etc.

Here in the forum it often sounds like Porsche does nothing OTA. I don't own a Tesla but I don't think they are getting significant updates every weekend.

 

[fullmetalbaal]

Tesla is the best at software no doubt, but OTA updates are overrated. In the 2 years I owned a Model X nothing that significant was upgraded. Mostly software fixes.

in terms of range I would argue Porsche has delivered. In real world tests the Taycan is very close to the Model S, but charges much faster. It’s a better road trip vehicle than my 295 mile rated Model X which would barely hit 225 miles on the highway.

I also believe Porsche nailed the “Porsche driving experience.” Considering all EV’s are heavy, they have worked some serious magic to make the Taycan feel the way it does. That is some serious engineering.

One thing that is rarely brought up is Tesla’s are really just high volume vanilla cars.Take the Model S for example. 5 paint choices, two wheels, and three interior colors. That’s 30 combinations. FSD hardware is included on every vehicle so that is simply a software update. Compare this to Porsche who doesn’t build the exact same 911 twice. I’m willing to be it’s the same situation with the Taycan. This level of configurability is a nightmare for manufacturing but a dream for car enthusiast who want a car uniquely their own.

One of the big fears with EV’s was they were all going to feel and look the same. Who cares if they are fast if everyone is driving the same car. Not to mention if they ever get FSD to work then most won’t even be driving anymore. Tesla is headed down this path. Porsche however has kept the spirit alive by maintaining uniqueness while building a drivers car, not an IPad on wheels.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/28958...e-911-sports-cars-are-built-every-year-report

Out of curiosity: Is your Model X pre- or post-Raven? We have a Model X LR and consistently get close to 300 miles on road trips. We've literally spooled >10K miles onto it that way, so it's not a one-off. I'm not questioning your statement here - I've heard enough people mention it for it to be true - just wondering what the cause of the delta is.

We've done Seattle to Sedona,AZ and back, Seattle to Yellowstone and back, Seattle to Banff, Seattle to Whistler, etc. etc. Never in range mode (my wife hates it when the AC doesn't keep up),

The model X has been an AMAZING car for road trips: efficiency of 320 wh/mile or better, the 6 seat config has tons of space for the kids, the autopilot handles long highway stretches superbly (I wouldn't use it in a city, I'm talking exclusively about more restful 2+hr cruising on the US highways)

+1 Million on the problem that they are all the same. Especially interior-wise, I'd love more options.

There's some parts about this that I like: they all have ALL the safety gear (It's always struck me as wrong when OEMs try to monetize every single safety aspect separately - it's embarrassing that emergency braking is taking so long to be standard).

Re: looking the same: My problem is that the whole industry has gotten so risk averse that they all look and feel the same. There's a Nissan and a Kia that share rear tail lights with the Audi Etron GT. They basically all have the same doors and same door handles and there's 2 types of mirror attachments. This didn't used to be the case. Look at classic cars from the 40s-60s. Lots of creativity. Some really bad ideas, some fun ones, and also lots of standard ideas. But there was variety. I like that Tesla brought some of that back: Falcon wing doors, minimalist interior. There's upsides and downsides, but at least it's DIFFERENT. The cybertruck is pure awesome in that way too. Who knows whether that kind of design sticks around, whether there's real upsides or not. But at least it's not all the same.

 

[manitou202]

Out of curiosity: Is your Model X pre- or post-Raven? We have a Model X LR and consistently get close to 300 miles on road trips. We've literally spooled >10K miles onto it that way, so it's not a one-off. I'm not questioning your statement here - I've heard enough people mention it for it to be true - just wondering what the cause of the delta is.

We had a 2018 Model X 100D with the 22" wheels and the six seat configuration. I know the 22" wheels have an impact on range, but my Taycan Turbo S has the 21" Mission E wheels as well and gets much better efficiency. The interior space was great, but without the ability to put a roof rack on the car we were limited especially on ski trips.

My biggest disappointment was our road trip from Colorado to Michigan. We averaged 419 Wh/mi over 2577 miles (less then 220 miles of range when fully charged). The efficiency was bad, but the charging was worse. The outside temperatures were in the upper 80's to mid 90's and the charging speeds were rarely above 100kW. We would get to a supercharger with 15-20% remaining, it would quickly ramp to 125kW and then by 45% it would be below 100kW. We were regularly taking 45 minutes to charge to 60-70%. Needless to say it made for a long road trip.

On similar road trips with high temps and highway speeds my E-tron has worse efficiency (420-450 Wh/mi), but has a roof box installed. It also charges at 150kW all the way to 80% regardless of the outside temperature. Our charging stops were typically 15-20 minutes. So our E-tron was faster on road trips than the Model X. Then throw in our Model X cost $117k minus the tax credit versus our E-tron was negotiated down to $64k (from $75k) and the tax credit on top of that. The Model X suddenly felt very expensive, with slow charging and a lot of squeaks and rattles.

Now compare our Taycan Turbo S with 300-320 Wh/mi in range mode, with equal to or better than charging speeds of the E-tron, and it makes for an excellent road trip EV. I'm sure the new Model S LR/Plaid have a little better efficiency, but I doubt they have better charging speeds. So the argument that Porsche dropped the ball in terms of efficiency and charging speeds compared to Tesla isn't true. On the surface by looking at EPA ratings and peak charging speeds, Tesla looks like a slam dunk, but in reality Porsche is really close. Obviously charging network is another story and obviously a big part of the equation.

We are planning on diving into another new startup by trading our E-tron in for a Rivian R1S. We want the additional space relative to the E-tron and Model X, along with the ability to use a large roof rack and take camping in the back country. I'm sure this will be another crazy journey.

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