Taycan Brakes fail in wet conditions - NHTSA complaint March 2, 2023

[bluegrassvroom]

I doubt this is related to the PSCB's. How many people have experienced this with irons?

Mike - LOVE your other post above spelling out how you've experienced this. Well articulated, thank you

I do have PSCB - BUT it's not a failure from lack of friction on the brakes. It's a failure of the brake pedal to get the mechanical brakes to engage. No one material will work to slow a car when the brake system won't press them together to create the friction...

Sponsored

 

[mikestyle]

i honestly think it's a programming error - i think there's a sensor in the wheel wells, that for some reason, when it gets covered or is triggered, it turns OFF the Regen Brakes, and like the first several stops of the day - the car is 100% reliable on the mechanical brakes. Trouble is, the programming forgot to tell the mechanical brakes -"hey, there are no regen brakes and you're needed to pick up the slack, we need you to work when the brake pedal is pressed even a smidge." Meaning - since the regen brakes aren't working for whatever reason, the first 50-60%+ of brake pedal travel does NOTHING to the car, and only at the bottom of the pedal press do the mechanical brakes engage - and when they do - it's minor - not at 'full bite'

YES - it's VERY SIMILAR (if not identical to) the first stop after a car wash. Now, imagine that horrible bad non working brake press after a car wash EXCEPT you're doing 40+ mph and there's traffic and you're approaching a red light with cars stopped. If i didn't swerve into the empty turn lane the first time this happened at speed, i would have had a serious crash with me and my child in the car. The car came to stop about 4-5 car lengths PAST where i wanted it. Again, thank goodness the turn lane was empty


the BEST way i found to PURPOSEFULLY reproduce it - is during or immediately after moderate rain, find a puddle (1/2"-2" deep) - and drive through it, then do a sharp turn (or a U-turn) or do the turn AS you're entering the puddle- you can be going 1mph, 5mph, whatever you want (there's a few of you trolls i wish would do this at 125 mph). Then normally it'll happen. I feel like the sensor might be slightly off to the side of the tire, so if it's turned, it's kicking more water up on the sensor. Yes, ok, that won't kill me or any of you, But sometimes this happens in moderate or heavy rain, on straight roads at speed.

Well said, your right on the money, its like a bug in the software and mechanical brake thinks the regen is working when it is not!

Did you notice a considerable difference/ upgrade when upgrading to the 2022 software?!


There must be some type of actuator responsible for managing the regen vs mechanical brake split. There is definitely a connection between heavy water and this issue.

 

[bluegrassvroom]

Agreed - would love to know the dealer. If they were able to reproduce the problem on every Taycan, seems it should be doable for Porsche themselves too?

I answer these questions in my other posts. Also won't give the name of my dealer (although, there are several ways to see where i live....) because they've been great in attempting to help me down and resolve this issue. I don't want anything rolling downhill to them, I feel they've done their job.

 

[bluegrassvroom]

Well said, your right on the money, its like a bug in the software and mechanical brake thinks the regen is working when it is not!

Did you notice a considerable difference/ upgrade when upgrading to the 2022 software?!

Great question. i DID notice a big difference for several months after the new large software upgrade. But then I realized it was several very dry months. Then the heavens opened up and Noah asked me for a test drive, and it happened again, to the same degree as before. That was the final straw before going to the NHTSA.

I'm wondering out loud if after the update - it didn't do it in some 'moderate' rains it may have earlier. I don't know. All i do know is during the heavy rain, same thing

 

[mikestyle]

Great question. i DID notice a big difference for several months after the new large software upgrade. But then I realized it was several very dry months. Then the heavens opened up and Noah asked me for a test drive, and it happened again, to the same degree as before. That was the final straw before going to the NHTSA.

I'm wondering out loud if after the update - it didn't do it in some 'moderate' rains it may have earlier. I don't know. All i do know is during the heavy rain, same thing

Interesting, in my 2020 before the software update, I could reproduce this on demand in the dry. A slight turn + brake and ABS would immediately turn the regen off and mechanical brakes would only work at the very end of the peddle.

After the update, I can only reproduce as you have described. If your car is 2021 then it might already have had an update over my 2020.

Food for thought.

 

[FlyingPoint]

Initially coming from cars in the late 60's early 70's (when my driving career started), nothing was 100% reliable. I have found that driving the Taycan in heavy rain equates to brakes not working as they should. I routinely apply brakes in heavy rain on a regular basis - this seems to mitigate the wet brake slide. Perfect, not in the least but I am still a driver at heart. If I can't control the car under ANY circumstance, then I am at fault. Know your ride, be prepared for any and all events - my 2cents. Now, having pontificated -- I still think the back up camera sucks!

 

[laua]

I answer these questions in my other posts. Also won't give the name of my dealer (although, there are several ways to see where i live....) because they've been great in attempting to help me down and resolve this issue. I don't want anything rolling downhill to them, I feel they've done their job.

Thanks. I read your initial thread and I got the sense that Porsche NA was able to reproduce the result at their facility and deemed it not worth fixing and “as designed”? How can a car not stopping be “as designed”. I might’ve misunderstood as I didn’t get that impression from your NHTSA complaint but if true that’s very damning. We should get some media attention on that. If only the FT would pick it up for maximum (stock price) impact

 

[bluegrassvroom]

[snip] got the sense that Porsche NA was able to reproduce the result at their facility and deemed it not worth fixing and “as designed”? How can a car not stopping be “as designed”. I might’ve misunderstood as I didn’t get that impression from your NHTSA complaint but if true that’s very damning. We should get some media attention on that. If only the FT would pick it up for maximum (stock price) impact

That is the feeling i got too - but it's second hand (third hand?) by that point - From Porsche's tester/technical guy to the Porsche NA contact to the service advisor to me. I can't state with certainty that Porsche DID recreate it - but i can tell you how the service advisor reacted when, after describing it to him for a while, he was in the car when it happened. (I'm saying service advisor but it was a senior service technician - guy who fixes, not guy who sits in front of a monitor and talks to customers)

I got the impression he wouldn't rest until Porsche understood what was going on. Maybe Porsche tried to re-create it and couldn't? Maybe they found a minor issue and thought that's what i was talking about and stopped trying? Maybe they DID re-create it and deemed it "as-designed"

I tried filming it (when i did my little loop through a parking lot that had a puddle) and the video will catch either the dash showing 0% regen, OR the brake pedal going in all the way without any feedback (the pedal is pretty 'limp' and isn't giving good pressure back when it does this) - i almost need three synchronized cameras showing all three at the same time (third being a video of outside and how it isn't slowing down) - but even then, it isn't dramatic to get a reaction when i'm reproducing it at 4mph in a parking lot

i just make sure to give myself A LOT of room in front of me in bad weather. so much that people behind me honk and pass me

i went back and watched some videos - here's a truncated one - showing me stopping halfway into a road when going 6-7 miles an hour. if the car stops 10 feet long at 6-7 miles an hour, imagine what it'd do going 30 or 40 or 50 mph when this happens

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

Now, having pontificated -- I still think the back up camera sucks!

Have you considered filing an NHTSA complaint?

 

[bluegrassvroom]

Have you considered filing an NHTSA complaint?

Why yes i did - thus the reason for this entire thread. I didn't realize the NHTSA complaints were published and searchable, and apparently someone on this forum found the complaint i made last week to NHTSA... i had to truncate to 2000 characters (down from almost 4000 of my first draft) so it wasn't as clear as i had hoped

 

[FlyingPoint]

Have you considered filing an NHTSA complaint?

I filed a complaint over 1 year ago.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

Apologies to you both, @bluegrassvroom and @FlyingPoint, my post was meant as an in-jest response to this remark: "I still think the back up camera sucks!"
Turns out I shouldn't joke about serious topic, especially on the internet. ;-)

 

[Archimedes]

**************************************
DETAILS ON THE ORIGINAL POST
**************************************

For many of you - Glad you're not having Taycan braking issues. Go on to the next post. Because YOU are not having the issues, doesn't mean some people aren't - it also doesn't mean that it's not reproducible, nor does it mean it's not potentially serious

i don't respond to other people's posts saying my radio never acted up that way or my interior sensor hasn't alarmed unnecessarily so they're liars - or they misspelled 2 words and capiTaLiZED things inappropriately so they must be children. Grow up

feel free to read the full 8 pages of posts under this other thread on this same site and see how many people have had this happen to them:

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...i-die-please-have-my-family-sue-porsche.9048/

The car has been to Porsche more times than i can count. No resolution. On one instance, a senior service advisor road with me, experienced it, then hopped in the driver seat, and reproduced it. Then we took out another Taycan, and reproduced it. Later he took out another (or two?) and reproduced it on those two and told me about it later.

Again - glad you're not experiencing it. Doesn't mean I'm a liar, doesn't mean the other several dozen people are liars. I bet you don't even have a Taycan, you're just a Russian troll or a 14 year old who loves Kia and are trying to stir something up.

I'd think if there was something serious about a car of which you owned a model, you'd want to have it fixed, so that A) it wouldn't ever happen to you and B) your resale value wouldn't be affected by this issue and people knowing of it

if anyone wants to take the original 3802 character document i wrote, not realizing the NHTSA only allows 2000 characters, and trim it down in a succinct way that is perfectly written and remove all my caps - go ahead. You must have more free time than I

i honestly think it's a programming error - i think there's a sensor in the wheel wells, that for some reason, when it gets covered or is triggered, it turns OFF the Regen Brakes, and like the first several stops of the day - the car is 100% reliable on the mechanical brakes. Trouble is, the programming forgot to tell the mechanical brakes -"hey, there are no regen brakes and you're needed to pick up the slack, we need you to work when the brake pedal is pressed even a smidge." Meaning - since the regen brakes aren't working for whatever reason, the first 50-60%+ of brake pedal travel does NOTHING to the car, and only at the bottom of the pedal press do the mechanical brakes engage - and when they do - it's minor - not at 'full bite'

YES - it's VERY SIMILAR (if not identical to) the first stop after a car wash. Now, imagine that horrible bad non working brake press after a car wash EXCEPT you're doing 40+ mph and there's traffic and you're approaching a red light with cars stopped. If i didn't swerve into the empty turn lane the first time this happened at speed, i would have had a serious crash with me and my child in the car. The car came to stop about 4-5 car lengths PAST where i wanted it. Again, thank goodness the turn lane was empty

Great, you never experienced this, you're awesome and your car is perfect. Again, doesn't mean I'm lying nor are the other people who've had this happen

the BEST way i found to PURPOSEFULLY reproduce it - is during or immediately after moderate rain, find a puddle (1/2"-2" deep) - and drive through it, then do a sharp turn (or a U-turn) or do the turn AS you're entering the puddle- you can be going 1mph, 5mph, whatever you want (there's a few of you trolls i wish would do this at 125 mph). Then normally it'll happen. I feel like the sensor might be slightly off to the side of the tire, so if it's turned, it's kicking more water up on the sensor. Yes, ok, that won't kill me or any of you, But sometimes this happens in moderate or heavy rain, on straight roads at speed.

I didn't mention which brakes i had because from the other post - people with all types of brakes have experienced it in their Taycans

Yes, there was a ridiculously long time since the first post at the link above and the NHTSA entry. Because i took the car to the local dealer. Several Times. Because I was told Porsche NA was working on the issue reproducing it on their wet track (?) in Atlanta. I even told them before making the entry to NHTSA - hey, I'm not happy with my car's braking in wet conditions, I'm not happy with the lack of progress from Porsche -I think I'm going to have to take this to NHTSA if they don't have a fix in the works. And they didn't have a fix, so I'm doing the only thing iI thought should occur next. Additionally, I'm not in Seattle - i'm not in the most rain-prone area so it doesn't happen that often. It is so serious that for a while - i was driving my kid's 5 year old Nissan Kicks in the rain because i couldn't fathom driving an unsafe car in the rain.

Make fun of me for my big nose or bulging waist or bad hair or my AHDH. Don't make fun of me for trying to fix a serious safety issue in a car. A safety issue that Porsche hasn't fixed after ample opportunities

Strangely, there have been zero accidents or injuries related to this ‘serious safety issue’ and you still own your Taycan with this ‘serious safety issue’. Why do you suppose that is? Honest question.

Nobody is saying that there isn’t an issue with some cars. The concern is that it may be being juuuuust slightly overstated in terms of severity and ubiquity. Again, why do you still own and drive a Taycan with what you deem to be a serious safety issue? If my car failed to stop for me, ever, I would trade it in for a different car before the sun went down.

 

[bluegrassvroom]

Apologies to you both, @bluegrassvroom and @FlyingPoint, my post was meant as an in-jest response to this remark: "I still think the back up camera sucks!"
Turns out I shouldn't joke about serious topic, especially on the internet. ;-)

the back-up camera does suck

 

[bluegrassvroom]

Strangely, there have been zero accidents or injuries related to this ‘serious safety issue’ and you still own your Taycan with this ‘serious safety issue’. Why do you suppose that is? Honest question.

Nobody is saying that there isn’t an issue with some cars. The concern is that it may be being juuuuust slightly overstated in terms of severity and ubiquity. Again, why do you still own and drive a Taycan with what you deem to be a serious safety issue? If my car failed to stop for me, ever, I would trade it in for a different car before the sun went down.

I'm not going to argue with you. What's great about our country and the internet is you're allowed to be wrong, and state your beliefs. What's horrible about the internet is people can state things that are absolutely wrong in ways that sound believable.

obviously i'm either making this up or I'm greatly exaggerating the issue? Those aren't the only options - the other is simply: you're wrong.

Why do i still own this car - because it's a friggin beautiful machine, it only happens in bad rain, and i have a limited number of bad rain days. On those days i can drive something else, not drive, or drive this like my grandma drives.

Should i have to do this? NOPE. would i do this if it was more than 2% of my driving days? Nope.

You state "there have been zero accidents or injuries related to this ‘serious safety issue’ " - and worse, you state it with authority. You don't have any way of knowing that. You can say you don't know about it causing any. Maybe the person didn't realize their car wasn't braking normally. Maybe it's happened in different countries. Stop acting like you know everything. You don't

You're lucky enough to live in a relatively rain-free part of the country, assuming your Monterey is CA. (But you're unfortunately in California as well) You get less than HALF the nation's average rainfall, and one-third what i get. Also, according to the statistics and professionals, there are fewer downpours there, more like light rains and spritzes. You might have realized, if you weren't too busy looking for poorly caiTaliZEd words and improper grammar and incorrect homonyms, that i said, multiple times -in moderate or heavy rain. I'd imagine you get less than a handful of those a year. And you probably aren't driving in all of them.

Your stating this doesn't happen is like someone in FL arguing with someone in Finland about how a car handles in the snow. Stop it, you simply have no idea. Consider yourself lucky. And per the other thread from 1.5 years ago - it does seem to be 2020's and 2021's - i don't remember if (m)any with 2022's or 2023's said they've experienced it.

Is this as bad as a car that randomly but often loses power on the interstate? No. But its not just a minor issue happening after car washes at 2mph either.

Sponsored