Taycan Turbo S vs. Model S Plaid - really by this much!?

Dee

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Tesla mainly produces electric vehicles.

Tesla’s market capitalization has risen from $0 to $766.7 billion.

Market cap is a measure of economic viability.

Ergo Tesla has validated BEV’s are economically viable.
Tesla has validated bevs are economically viable?
Tesla hasn't made a single profit in building EVs till now...
It's the CO2-rights they sell that generate the profit.
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Jhenson29

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From your favorite source.

TSLA Sales.JPG
Who/what are you responding to? Me? What’s your point? Your original post was that it was their market cap. If you’re switching to another metic, please explain.
 

JimBob

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Tesla has validated bevs are economically viable?
Tesla hasn't made a single profit in building EVs till now...
It's the CO2-rights they sell that generate the profit.
You may wish to review a standard finance text book. The market is a discounting mechanism. It's forward looking not backward looking, though with volatility. If you feel that your argument is the more powerful one, then you may wish to consider a short position. Let me know how that works out.
 

TomC

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Straw man 🙄
Fraid not, ol' chap. Your argument is: I need irrefutable proof. Regardless of what is put forward there's a counter argument to it being considered categorical proof, so I just saved everyone the effort of reading it.
 

JimBob

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Who/what are you responding to? Me? What’s your point? Your original post was that it was their market cap. If you’re switching to another metic, please explain.
I was referring to you. Tesla has demonstrated that it is a valuable property (measured by market cap), because as the sales graph shows, it generates rising sales for its electric cars. Market cap is a result of all the inputs that go into the value of a company.

But your argument will always be a contrary argument because you say a direct link cannot be proven,. You are looking for causation when all that is available is correlation.

Because causation cannot be proven does not necessarily imply that the conclusion is wrong.

Do you believe a person acting reasonably could deny that rising Tesla sales would have no effect on Porsche's decision to build the Taycan?
 

daveo4EV

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Tesla achieved one thing also that was common prior to 2013 and delay’d good EV’s for who knows how long…

”there is no demand for EV’s” - that was common crutch from industry players both publicly and privately - even _IF_ internally someone had the foresight to pitch a plan to do an EV - the internal pitch would run up against “there is no demand for EV’s” once it got to senior managment (and regulations won’t cause demand for at least another 20 years)

after 2014/2015 I ‘ve been told in person by:
  • senior VP of sales GM
  • Director of sales for Porsche
  • Sales manager for a large west coast dealership
  • track buddy of mine at Volvo US
  • etc…
that the argument “there is no demand for EV” - meaning there will be no sales of EV if we build them - no longer was credible with anyone - and even the people who wished that to be true were now silent and could not object…it changed the conversation from ”we’re not going to do it” - to at least “we need to consider it.” cause I hear Tesla selling a lot of these things where there is no demand.
 

evn00b

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Tesla decisively proved once for all that EVs can be aspirational and desirable vehicles, period. Before that the mainstream buyer thought of them as compromised products.
 

Jhenson29

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What a f***cking dumper-fire of a thread…

I don’t have the energy for this.

I asked my question; I got my answer.
You’re all welcome to believe whatever you want.🤷‍♂️ No harm to me.

I’ll be done with this thread now.
 

TayFan

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But that right there is a step too far.

Look, even if everything else you’re saying is correct, knowing A could cause B is not the same as knowing A did cause B.

You (and everyone else I’ve seen try to make this claim), is saying because it could have caused it, it did cause it.

The argument isn’t sound, regardless of whether or not the facts are true.

Do you know how to check for absence of voltage? You have to first check for voltage presence on another source, then check for absence of voltage, then check for voltage presence on another source again. The point being to isolate the reason for the 0V reading to actually being because voltage is not present. Otherwise, just because voltage not being present could cause a 0V reading, doesn’t mean that your 0V reading is because there is no voltage.

Or another example. Dropping a plate could break it. But if you know I dropped a plate, does that mean you know the drop broke it? What if it was broken before I dropped it? What if some of the break was before and some after? What if it was weak from use over the years and this drop only broke it because of those years of use? How do you, without all of that other information, assign credit to the drop? What amount? Really, the only thing we know for sure is that my wife is going to yell at me because I dropped a plate.

And that why I keep saying this argument is soft.
100%…correlation is not causation.
 

Dee

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What a f***cking dumper-fire of a thread…

I don’t have the energy for this.

I asked my question; I got my answer.
You’re all welcome to believe whatever you want.🤷‍♂️ No harm to me.

I’ll be done with this thread now.
I still wonder why we, on this Taycan forum, should know all this "truth" about Tesla.
Actually, I couldn't care less.

Some desperately trying to be objective but it's becoming quite annoying to see such "objective fanboyism" about Tesla.
Actually, it's becoming Goebbels propaganda machine all over again.
...
Page 35.
 
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feye

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Tesla achieved one thing also that was common prior to 2013 and delay’d good EV’s for who knows how long…

”there is no demand for EV’s” - that was common crutch from industry players both publicly and privately - even _IF_ internally someone had the foresight to pitch a plan to do an EV - the internal pitch would run up against “there is no demand for EV’s” once it got to senior managment (and regulations won’t cause demand for at least another 20 years)

after 2014/2015 I ‘ve been told in person by:
  • senior VP of sales GM
  • Director of sales for Porsche
  • Sales manager for a large west coast dealership
  • track buddy of mine at Volvo US
  • etc…
that the argument “there is no demand for EV” - meaning there will be no sales of EV if we build them - no longer was credible with anyone - and even the people who wished that to be true were now silent and could not object…it changed the conversation from ”we’re not going to do it” - to at least “we need to consider it.” cause I hear Tesla selling a lot of these things where there is no demand.
Much more interesting would be to know in what markets T was selling up to the time when Porsche triggered the investment for the Taycan?

Wasn't it mainly in
  • California (treehuggers :involve: replacing aging Prius and young tech guys)?
  • Norway - early brutal government regulation?
Best selling EV of all time in Norway: Nissan Leaf. Because of Nissan Leaf, we have CHAdeMO chargers all over Europe.

My argument is still clear. Porsche pulled the trigger, when China forced them, because Porsche imports 100% into China, has no production and no joint venture partner in China. Only with this regulation, they felt confident enough that they could succeed in their largest market and therefore succeed with the Taycan as an EV to be profitable.

The same is true for the Audi e-tron. They were toying around with the Q6 (no e-tron at the time) for years, but nothing ever came up. Then again, when China pushed, they suddently got serious and released the first model even before Porsche.

Once China led the way, the EU followed with very harsh CO2 targets. Towards the end of last year it was the talk of the town, how can all the various European brands fulfill these targets?

My other argument is: Today, nobody in the traditional car industry cares about T. If you read interviews with executives in Europe, nobody talks about T. They are all 100% focused on:
  • How to fulfill regulatory requirements.
  • Where and how to produce all the batteries they need.
  • Where and how to source the raw materials.
  • How to develop the new platforms.
  • How to make and manage the ever more complex software
  • etc...
How can your argument carry any weight, if you refuse to look at the global car market where Porsche is selling?
 

feye

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I still wonder why we, on this Taycan forum, should know all this "truth" about Tesla.
Actually, I couldn't care less.

Some desperately trying to be objective but it's becoming quite annoying to see such "objective fanboyism" about Tesla.
Actually, it's becoming Goebbels propaganda machine all over again.
...
Page 35.
I agree. I record my experience, because it could be interesting to understand future decisions on when and what models get electrified:

e-Boxster-EV-Elektro-169FullWidth-c979b6cf-1793222.jpg


2023 EV Macan (hot selling in China), then 2024 718 Boxter and 718 Cayman as EV.

Well-informed sources have now told Car and Driver that the interior of the electric 718s will be much more forward-looking than that of its big brother, the Taycan. The cockpit is expected to make a "huge leap" and both models will be the "most modern Porsche". The sports car manufacturer is probably primarily targeting the Chinese market with its young customers, who are on average 31 years old.
 

kreshi

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I too have had enough of this topic, but have to say one last thing.

People mentioning Teslas value at the market as a result of their sales. Ehm, compared to everyone else, Tesla sells a tiny amount of cars, and as we know they did with no profit for a long time. This “most valuable automaker in the world” thing is pure hype. Tesla is like a cryptocurrency in that regard. People are following the hype and are playing with the shares to make money.
 

AMERCY

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Reading and enjoying this high profile thread, just this old saying crossed my mind:
"Arguing with an Engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After a few minutes your realize the pig likes it."
No insult here - being myself an engineer.
 
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