Taycan Turbo S vs. Model S Plaid - really by this much!?

feye

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But I’m not the one making a claim. You are.

You can’t make a claim and then defend it by saying I can’t prove the opposite…
I can. Every car brand dumping EVs in China on the market, most likely losing money - even Toyota and Lexus. Why? Regulatory requirements.

If all these brands with all these EV models were actually competing with T, why are there almost non of them in the US?
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whitex

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I can. Every car brand dumping EVs in China on the market, most likely losing money - even Toyota and Lexus. Why? Regulatory requirements.

If all these brands with all these EV models were actually competing with T, why are there almost non of them in the US?
Major brands are not dumping EV's in China. China has 3.5 times the population (market size) and a bunch of EV incentives including manufacturing incentives, consumer incentives, and speedy charging infrastructure buildout. They are also a lot more friendly to autonomy technologies, allowing more testing. China is even building new roads to auto navigate easier, deploy dense 5G coverages in cities (which yes, is also useful for autonomy technology in cars), etc. Why would Elon be dumping Teslas in China as regulatory cars? VW is also looking to China for EV profits, not loses in order to sell ICE cars (which IIRC are supposed to get banned in China sooner than USA).
 

feye

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Dee

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This is a surprising truth that many people miss.
Toyota was more into hydrogen and hybrids, Mirai and Prius.
Now they realize the world is going BEV after all.
It wasn't that clear at the time.
I don't think hydrogen is a good solution imho.
 

whitex

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Fish Fingers

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Lots of Googling going on in this thread to back up arguments.

I still doubt we will ever see a post saying.....
'actually, thinking about it - you are right. I have completely changed my point of view. Thankyou for pointing out my errors'.
?
 

kreshi

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Even if Tesla would have invented the electric car, heck the car as we know it, even the wheel, what do you get from that when today it’s a vaporware false marketing lying and stealing from its customers company?
 

feye

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Lots of Googling going on in this thread to back up arguments.
Well yes, if you want to discover the truth, you got to dig in order to go back in time.

I still doubt we will ever see a post saying.....
'actually, thinking about it - you are right. I have completely changed my point of view. Thankyou for pointing out my errors'.
?
Not my objective at all. I value the discussion. I only record my experience here and in other threads for others to see a different point of view in the ocean of fanboy nonsense.
 


Jhenson29

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Not my objective at all. I value the discussion. I only record my experience here and in other threads for others to see a different point of view in the ocean of fanboy nonsense.
I had never even thought about it prior to reading various discussions on this forum.

Then, the first time I read someone crediting Tesla for the Taycan, my first thought without much consideration was “yeah, that sounds reasonable.”

But then I read opposing opinions and I was like, “wait, do I actually know Tesla has any credit here?”

And then I realized I don’t.. There’s no clear line to credit Tesla for the Taycan.

I still doubt we will ever see a post saying.....
'actually, thinking about it - you are right. I have completely changed my point of view. Thankyou for pointing out my errors'.
So, it’s a few months late, but…

@feye actually, thinking about it - you are right. I have completely changed my point of view. Thankyou for pointing out my errors.
 

feye

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Toyota was more into hydrogen and hybrids, Mirai and Prius.
Now they realize the world is going BEV after all.
It wasn't that clear at the time.
I don't think hydrogen is a good solution imho.
Well they have to. China is an important market to Toyota.

H2 is a disaster for becoming a CO2 neutral economy.
 

Needsdecaf

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Not my objective at all. I value the discussion. I only record my experience here and in other threads for others to see a different point of view in the ocean of fanboy nonsense.
Your labeling anything pro-Tesla as "fanboy nonsense" indiciates just how willing you are to be open in that discussion.
 

Needsdecaf

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I had never even thought about it prior to reading various discussions on this forum.

Then, the first time I read someone crediting Tesla for the Taycan, my first thought without much consideration was “yeah, that sounds reasonable.”

But then I read opposing opinions and I was like, “wait, do I actually know Tesla has any credit here?”

And then I realized I don’t.. There’s no clear line to credit Tesla for the Taycan.


So, it’s a few months late, but…

@feye actually, thinking about it - you are right. I have completely changed my point of view. Thankyou for pointing out my errors.
Tesla has, in the US, single-handedly created the luxury EV market. Period. They proved it could be viable, they proved that people would pay for an expensive EV and enjoy it. And they did it with a pretty spotty product line. I won't extrapolate this to other parts of the world, but clearly in the US, this really cannot be debated. Before the Model S had any success, the only EV's were really compliance cars or Eco-Warriors.

So while there is clearly no direct line from the Model S to the Taycan, Tesla proved that there was a market, and that a company with a tech-focused, performance focused, luxury focused EV could succeed. And if people don't think that wasn't presented to the board when making the business case for the Taycan, well, I think you should likely do more research.
 

Jhenson29

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Tesla has, in the US, single-handedly created the luxury EV market. Period. They proved it could be viable, they proved that people would pay for an expensive EV and enjoy it. And they did it with a pretty spotty product line. I won't extrapolate this to other parts of the world, but clearly in the US, this really cannot be debated. Before the Model S had any success, the only EV's were really compliance cars or Eco-Warriors.

So while there is clearly no direct line from the Model S to the Taycan, Tesla proved that there was a market, and that a company with a tech-focused, performance focused, luxury focused EV could succeed. And if people don't think that wasn't presented to the board when making the business case for the Taycan, well, I think you should likely do more research.
And that’s the only argument I ever hear. But it’s just…so…soft.

Tesla showed it could be done so then Porsche did it?

Even if it was taken into consideration and presented to a board…that doesn’t tell us what happens in its absence.

First, we have no hard data on when Porsche was taking BEVs seriously. We have the Mission E debut by 2015, so I would assume at least by then; but we don’t know how much earlier.

And I don’t find Tesla’s sales prior to that to be compelling enough to be convinced it was the reason.

It’s just a really, really soft argument. I won’t go so far as to say it has zero weight. But it’s really not as strong as you are presenting it.

I would accept something more tangible like, Tesla built a charging infrastructure that other automakers could piggy back off of. Except they didn’t.
 

daveo4EV

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model S sales dominated in its price segment causing the others to lose share - multiple quarters of model s as sales leader for the market segment is a documentable fact - at least in the US

this made the “other guys” take notice - Model S decimated the high end but low volume large sedan market - Model 3 dominates it’s market, and now the Model Y is dominating the mid-sized SUV market

to suggest Tesla has had no effect or changed peoples plans is ludicrous
 
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Needsdecaf

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And that’s the only argument I ever hear. But it’s just…so…soft.

Tesla showed it could be done so then Porsche did it?

Even if it was taken into consideration and presented to a board…that doesn’t tell us what happens in its absence.

First, we have no hard data on when Porsche was taking BEVs seriously. We have the Mission E debut by 2015, so I would assume at least by then; but we don’t know how much earlier.

And I don’t find Tesla’s sales prior to that to be compelling enough to be convinced it was the reason.

It’s just a really, really soft argument. I won’t go so far as to say it has zero weight. But it’s really not as strong as you are presenting it.

I would accept something more tangible like, Tesla built a charging infrastructure that other automakers could piggy back off of. Except they didn’t.
Meh, it's only soft because I didn't present data. I didn't really think I needed to.

Look, I'm not saying that Porsche never would have decided to debut the Mission E. Or Rivian. Or Lucid. Or Canoo. Or Mercedes would launch a phalanx of EV's at the Frankfurt Auto show. But if you really cared enough (and I don't because I honestly don't find any value in convincing anyone since it really doesn't benefit me and I'm not a huge fan of the company anyway) you could look at EV sales in the US over the last 20 years and see the trend. It's not hard.

Here's an interesting presentation on the state of the market from 2012.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2014-09/documents/kodjak121312.pdf
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