Taycan Turbo S vs. Model S Plaid - really by this much!?

NC_Taycan

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One could hope that those who can afford a Taycan would have a degree of maturity exceeding that of your typical Facebook political debate. And for the most part we do. There are a lot of strong opinions on this thread, and some of the posts are dancing on the verge of uncivil - but only dancing. It gives me hope that as a society at least some of us have not forgotten how to disagree respectfully.
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schad

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it’s not a fan boy argument - it’s a fact of sales data. in 2015 TEsla sold like 27,500 $120k sedans - that was more volume than ANY other $100k sedan from any other vendor.
What's your source for those numbers? I'm curious what trim level of the Model S went for $120k in 2015.
 

daveo4EV

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What's your source for those numbers? I'm curious what trim level of the Model S went for $120k in 2015.
wikipedia Model S sales section
 

schad

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Yes, I did find the same sales number elsewhere. But my research showed the top trim level of the MY2015 Model S (P90D) went for $108k, and all the others were under $90k -- down to $70k for the 60. I don't see any $120k trim level. What's your source for that?

By comparison to the Tesla MSRP figures I could find:

The 2015 BMW 5-series sold for $50k (528i) to $94k (M5). The vast majority sold would've been 535i's, at $56k.

The 2015 MB E-class sold for $52k (E250) to $103k (E63). Similarly, the vast majority were probably E350s for $52k-$59k.

It seems pretty clear to me that, regardless of what anybody claims, Tesla was actually competing against these cars.

But don't take this as an attempt to diminish Tesla. If someone had told you back in 2011 that in four short years Tesla was going to sell half as many Model Ses as BMW would sell 5ers, you would've laughed in his face, right? And yet that's exactly what they did. That's a huge accomplishment. Almost unreal, if you think about it.
 

TomC

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I just wanted to help with this thread, for anyone new coming along. In summary: we are after irrefutable proof that the Taycan came around due to Tesla. This proof can only be deemed acceptable if we have the CEO of Porsche calling a press conference to announce it, with preference towards the press conference being titled “Why Tesla Model S made me green light the Mission E”. But we all know that could be a DeepFake or perhaps he was under duress, held at the hostage of the Illuminati. Our only option is to take a pilgrimage to Stuggart and ask him face-to-face!

Yet then, what really is truth? We‘ll have no choice but to consult our friendly neighbourhood A.J. Ayer, Bertrand Russell and Wittgenstein quotes. And how do I know he’s really the CEO of Porsche? How do I know I’m real? Descartes “cogito, ergo sum” must make at least one mention.

Eventually we’ll end up with Godwin’s law around page 35. They’ll be a sudden realisation at this point that the thread was about the Tesla Plaid being faster in a straight line than the Taycan Turbo S, which seems irrefutable. Or is it? Perhaps we need Pythagoras’ views to really settle it.
 


Jhenson29

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we are after irrefutable proof that the Taycan came around due to Tesla. This proof can only be deemed acceptable if we have the CEO of Porsche calling a press conference to announce it,
Straw man ?
 


kreshi

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Using the terms “full self driving” should be illegal. With that logic the 911 could easily have a “full self flying” option because when you thrash it down a racetrack you might catch some air time after a bump.
 

Kingske

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Without taking any side in this slightly overheated debate, a couple of observations:
- Tesla validated that there is an economically viable market for BEV’s, so even if the Taycan would not have been ab initio conceived as a Model S competitor, Tesla‘s success as a company probably encouraged Porsche to bet relatively early on a BEV sedan (unlike BMW which now has a lot of catching up to do),
- Tesla’s quality and finish have always been deplorable and still are, which is why I am unlikely to ever buy one,
- Tesla’s software integration and user interface, as well as its charger network are today still competitive advantages,
- Tesla’s corporate ethics are questionable, most notably in their AutoPilot and Full Self Driving references to systems that are clearly not yet up to the task their name suggests.
 

Jhenson29

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Tesla validated that there is an economically viable market for BEV’s,
That’s a somewhat vague statement. At what time (year please) and by what metrics did Tesla accomplish this? ?
 

JimBob

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Tesla mainly produces electric vehicles.

Tesla’s market capitalization has risen from $0 to $766.7 billion.

Market cap is a measure of economic viability.

Ergo Tesla has validated BEV’s are economically viable.
 

Kingske

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That’s a somewhat vague statement. At what time (year please) and by what metrics did Tesla accomplish this? ?
It is deliberately a non-specific statement because the exact moment of validation is in the eye/mind of the beholder. For some who were just waiting for an EV other than a virtue-signaling eco-cart to have commercial appeal, that moment would have come sooner. For others who were waiting for an EV business to turn a profit, that moment would have come later.
 

Jhenson29

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Tesla’s market capitalization has risen from $0 to $766.7 billion.
I was referencing the statement of Tesla’s validation of the economic viability of BEVs as a premise for the claim of Tesla’s influence on Porsche. Not in isolation.

You’re stating Tesla’s current market cap.

Is it your position then that it’s not until now that Tesla has validated this? If so, that validation clearly could not have influenced Porsche.

My guess is that was not your intention. So, do you want to pick an earlier year instead?

Here’s their market cap for the last 5 years. Let me know. ?

Porsche Taycan Taycan Turbo S vs. Model S Plaid - really by this much!? 03E6DAF4-962C-4DFA-B61A-BDDBAAD7122B



It is deliberately a non-specific statement because the exact moment of validation is in the eye/mind of the beholder.
Ah, but we have a specific beholder in mind, don’t we? The statement was a premise for claiming Tesla’s influence on Porsche.

So….when and by what metrics would you conclude Porsche found this validation?

Careful. Make the date too late and it’s less likely it influenced Porsche. Make it too early and it’s harder to claim the metric’s significance.

It’s a tough timeline, in my opinion, to make any strong claims.

Again, to be clear, I’m not saying it for sure didn’t happen. I am saying that it’s not as obviously true as some people want to claim it is.
 

Kingske

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I was referencing the statement of Tesla’s validation of the economic viability of BEVs as a premise for the claim of Tesla’s influence on Porsche. Not in isolation.

You’re stating Tesla’s current market cap.

Is it your position then that it’s not until now that Tesla has validated this? If so, that validation clearly could not have influenced Porsche.

My guess is that was not your intention. So, do you want to pick an earlier year instead?

Here’s their market cap for the last 5 years. Let me know. ?

03E6DAF4-962C-4DFA-B61A-BDDBAAD7122B.jpeg




Ah, but we have a specific beholder in mind, don’t we? The statement was a premise for claiming Tesla’s influence on Porsche.

So….when and by what metrics would you conclude Porsche found this validation?

Careful. Make the date too late and it’s less likely it influenced Porsche. Make it too early and it’s harder to claim the metric’s significance.

It’s a tough timeline, in my opinion, to make any strong claims.

Again, to be clear, I’m not saying it for sure didn’t happen. I am saying that it’s not as obviously true as some people want to claim it is.
It may indeed be more a matter of probability than certainty. Only a formal statement from Porsche may confirm the latter and Porsche is unlikely to claim or admit being driven by Tesla in its strategic choices. If I were Porsche, I wouldn’t.
 
 




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