daveo4EV

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if the CCS connector can support vehicle to grid - then NCAS can also…

CCS has 5 passive electrical conductors - two communication pins, ground, and two high voltage DC connectors
NCAS has 5 passive electrical conductors - two communication pins, ground and two high voltage dual-purpose AC/DC connectors

electrically the connectors are identical to each other - but they are different shapes and sizes and the "rules" for which pins can do what are different (the high voltage pins can be DC or AC in NCAS)

I can't believe people are fighting this - CCS is terrible to use - why resist something better that doesn't lock anyone into anything other than a better shapped connector.

 

whitex

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they have opened the connector design and shape - is does not support or not support bi-directional power - it's a passive connectors - I don't see how this would prevent vehicle to grid.
They opened up signaling too, and that is where the by-directional-power comes in. The physical connectors were never a secret from the start. Or are you saying that you hope other manufacturers will adopt only the physical connector, but not make them NCAS compatible? That would make supercharger not usable by other manufacturers by the way.
 

daveo4EV

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Technically true that is a passive adapter, but not true that it's a true CCS to NCAS adapter. This adapter can only be used on newer Tesla vehicles (2020+ IIRC), as it requires hardware and software in the Tesla which will recognize the adapter and switch Tesla onboard-charger to ISO15118 (CCS) mode. I own two Model S, both can of course use Tesla superchargers (NCAS) without any issues, neither of those will work with the above adapter. There is an upgrade available from Tesla, but it requires changing out some car hardware. Another way to think of it - this is half of the adapter, the passive half, a more complex part of this adapter must already be built-into a Tesla car for it to work. I also doubt they actually convert to NCAS signaling at all, they probably have native ISO15118 signaling in the software since they've been offering that in Europe already.
I agree - that's the beauty of it - NCAS is a agnostic/passive connector design - YES teh vehicle must support talking to the charger - NCAS is just a propsal/alternative to CCS that is more compact than CCS

in all cases the vehicle in question will need to know how to talk to the charger using the 5 electrical connection provided...

it's just a connector shape and size and spec.
 

daveo4EV

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They opened up signaling too, and that is where the by-directional-power comes in. The physical connectors were never a secret from the start. Or are you saying that you hope other manufacturers will adopt only the physical connector, but not make them NCAS compatible? That would make supercharger not usable by other manufacturers by the way.
that would be fine with me - what the vehicle supports becomes a matter of what signally protocols they decide to recognize

CCS has 5 electrical conductors
NCAS has 5 electrical conductors

one plug can be handled by humans and doesn't break as much and is smaller/lighter
one plug breaks a lot, difficult to handle, and is hard to insert

both have 5 separate electrical coductors - 2 comm, 1 ground, 2 high voltage…

anything CCS can do NCAS can do…

after that it's a matter of software in the vehicle.
 

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I agree it should be royalty free, but J-1772 is patented and licenced and cost money - so this is not an impediment honestly - but it appears Tesla is offering it up as a "free standard" - so your move other EV vendors…
It's not just royalties for using the design, it's also provisioning for use with Tesla superchargers. Think salvage Tesla cars which have native, fully licensed, made by Tesla NCAS hardware but cannot charge at superchargers because Tesla revoked their provisioning.

CCS sucks - this is a viable alternative - proven functional - the question is will anyone bite?
I completely agree with you there.
 


daveo4EV

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It's not just royalties for using the design, it's also provisioning for use with Tesla superchargers. Think salvage Tesla cars which have native, fully licensed, made by Tesla NCAS hardware but cannot charge at superchargers because Tesla revoked their provisioning.
authorization is always an issue - Ea won't charge your car either if you don't have an account…or can post payment -or your car has been "banned" from their network.

I think we're confusing too many things here...

a connector shape/size doesn't make anything "just magically work" - it always requires authorization/payment/compatibility/protocol-recognition

there at CCS vehicles that don't work at some chargers - I've talked to EA tech - they are having a hell of time keeping the stations compatible with the cars, and the cars are having a hell of time keeping up with the station vendors…

teh connector is a physical limitation - but no CCS connector makes your car magically work with EA/ChargePoint or EVGo…it always requires software inside the car…and the charging station.

it's like a USB-C to USB-A adapter - first you solve the physical shape issue, then yo have to update the OS to recognize the device...a USB-C to USB-A adatper won't make my desktop recognize a USB-A printer it doesn't have drivers for - but with out hte physical adatper we can't even try...

I'd be thrilled if using a Supercharger were down to a matter of software…right now that's a high class problem I don't have.
 

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it's just a connector shape and size and spec.
I think this is where you and I disconnect - as I read this, NCAS is not jus the connector size and spec - it includes all the signaling protocols, etc. The connector itself was always available..
 

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I think this is where you and I disconnect - as I read this, NCAS is not jus the connector size and spec - it includes all the signaling protocols, etc. The connector itself was always available..
yeah it documents both - but does it require it?

we could move to the NCAS physical connector - and not support the NCAS signaling protocol - and run PURE CCS/ISO/J-1772 protocols across it…no new software on the vehicles, and no supercharger compatibility…unless vendors want to add the support.

but the CCS connector sucks - let's change it.

I understand they have released both…

but let's take them separate from one another…

NCAS as an alternative and more easily handled physical 5 wire connector
NCAS as a protocol to talk to NCAS EVSE's/FastChargers

I'd like both

but I'll accept just the NCAS connector with CCS connector adapter for backwards compatibility
 


daveo4EV

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Technically true that is a passive adapter, but not true that it's a true CCS to NCAS adapter. This adapter can only be used on newer Tesla vehicles (2020+ IIRC), as it requires hardware and software in the Tesla which will recognize the adapter and switch Tesla onboard-charger to ISO15118 (CCS) mode. I own two Model S, both can of course use Tesla superchargers (NCAS) without any issues, neither of those will work with the above adapter. There is an upgrade available from Tesla, but it requires changing out some car hardware. Another way to think of it - this is half of the adapter, the passive half, a more complex part of this adapter must already be built-into a Tesla car for it to work. I also doubt they actually convert to NCAS signaling at all, they probably have native ISO15118 signaling in the software since they've been offering that in Europe already.
you are correct I over stated…

the current adatper allows any NCAS vehicle to 'connect' to a CCS charger - actually using the charger requires software support on the vehicle and charger to be able to talk to each other

but for example

if say "lucid air" added an NCAS physical connection port to their car
and this car pulled up to an EA 350 kW CCS station
Lucid could use the existing adapter to "talk" the EA CCS station using the CCS protocol/standard - because the lucid already "speaks" the CCS protocol.
 

daveo4EV

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It's not just royalties for using the design, it's also provisioning for use with Tesla superchargers. Think salvage Tesla cars which have native, fully licensed, made by Tesla NCAS hardware but cannot charge at superchargers because Tesla revoked their provisioning.
this is no different that 2020 Taycan not supporting Plug&Charge with provision new charger hardware…and software.

two separate issues

#1 - NCAS as a physical standard/alternative to the physical CCS connector
#2 - NCAS as a protocol/signaling standard to "talk to charger"

I'll be happy with just #1 - because if I had that plus some adapters, I think we're done - Taycan (and others) already work in Europe where they don't have a connector issue - so the software is done - and I don't care if Tesla fixes it on their end (supercharger) or Porsche fixes in their end (supporting superchargers)

but we know today - right now - where the physical connectors are NOT an issue (Europe) the supercharger network _ALREADY WORKS_ with non-Teslas where Tesla chooses to "authorize" them to work…

and again CCS phuysical connector sucks

I don't care when I'm charging who's protocol were using - presumably if my Taycan magically "grew" a NACS physical port and I plugged into an EA station it would still be a CCS charging session - fine - great, no change required.

let's all get on the same connector, and lets pick the physical connector that is _BETTER_ - we have two choices:
  1. NACS
  2. european
both are better and easier to handle vs. north american CCS physical plug

once we have the physical plug issue worked out and have adopted one that doesn't suck

I don't give a rats ass as to which chargers I can use - that's a software/business/market forces problem and it will sort itself out with market and govt. pressure…and it will be down to a matter of what software either party wants to support as it should be…
let's move to NCAS physically - and then leave it as a business problem as to who's stations I can use…
 

daveo4EV

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Why is everyone saying NCAS? It's North American Charging Standard (NACS).
because I'm stupid and mistying it - thanks for the correction.
 

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this is no different that 2020 Taycan not supporting Plug&Charge with provision new charger hardware…and software.

two separate issues

#1 - NCAS as a physical standard/alternative to the physical CCS connector
#2 - NCAS as a protocol/signaling standard to "talk to charger"

I'll be happy with just #1 - because if I had that plus some adapters, I think we're done - Taycan (and others) already work in Europe where they don't have a connector issue - so the software is done - and I don't care if Tesla fixes it on their end (supercharger) or Porsche fixes in their end (supporting superchargers)

but we know today - right now - where the physical connectors are NOT an issue (Europe) the supercharger network _ALREADY WORKS_ with non-Teslas where Tesla chooses to "authorize" them to work…

and again CCS phuysical connector sucks

I don't care when I'm charging who's protocol were using - presumably if my Taycan magically "grew" a NACS physical port and I plugged into an EA station it would still be a CCS charging session - fine - great, no change required.

let's all get on the same connector, and lets pick the physical connector that is _BETTER_ - we have two choices:
  1. NACS
  2. european
both are better and easier to handle vs. north american CCS physical plug

once we have the physical plug issue worked out and have adopted one that doesn't suck

I don't give a rats ass as to which chargers I can use - that's a software/business/market forces problem and it will sort itself out with market and govt. pressure…and it will be down to a matter of what software either party wants to support as it should be…
let's move to NCAS physically - and then leave it as a business problem as to who's stations I can use…
so fine - Tell Elon to stuff it and NACS sucks
still kill off north america CCS physical connector in favor of the european physical connector - we know that works and Tesla always supports that connector outside the US and can talk to "other" non-superchargers…

two separte issues:

the physical CCS North America connectors is poorly designed - pick something better
I could care less about NACS as a signally protocol - other than if I am allowed to use the supercharger network - but if we agress on the physical connector - that becomes a software (or potentially in vehicle hardware/software) - great - my 2020 Taycan doesn't support plug&chargte or vehicle to grid - but when it does apparenltly the existing CCS hardware connector can do it - therefore so can NACS or the ISO-Euro connector

CCS physical plug needs to die - pick an alternative…
 

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Related question, anyone digging through the specs (or other sources) found the beta parameter for the temperature sensor in the AC handle? The datasheet seems to be missing it.

1668317955922.png
 

daveo4EV

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Related question, anyone digging through the specs (or other sources) found the beta parameter for the temperature sensor in the AC handle? The datasheet seems to be missing it.

1668317955922.png
ROFL - my PMCC power supply cable exceeded 75C in 65F ambient conditions 2 years ago - ROFL - if Porsche had the temperature sensor they would've shut down the charging session - viva PMCC w/10 gauge wire in a 40 amp supply cable.

but I digress…

@whitex has an excellent question.
 

 
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