The "religion" of car ownership

XLR82XS

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I know for a fact Porsche stuff is designed better and to a high standard with better materials than other alternatives - does it matter, sometimes yes sometimes no - but I do know they sweat some details other's just ignore - I see it at every track weekend when lesser cars just can't take the 2 or 3 days of full bore running…and yet Porsches tend to have fewer problems.

now Tesla's design and spec's - whole different ball game - we'll start with their brakes and pad specifications and get more depressed from there on out - even though they have Brembo make the brakes…they are utter crap.
Agreed. Yes - Tesla OE brakes sucks.
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Dee

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source of this assertion?

this video shows the EV motors being assembled by Porsche in the Taycan factory…sure seems like Porsche manufactures the motors for our cars.

Electric Porsche Taycan Powertrain Assembly


at a minmum even if porsche doesn't manufacture the motors they are designed to Porsche's specifications - kinda like Apple designing the chip architecture and then TMSC does the actual silicon production - the design is what you're purchasing…Porsche certainly designed the motor.

but I could be wrong.
I was about to say that.
You're completely right Dave.
It's the assumptions that make some "facts" become true if you know what I mean. ;-)

Still, on the brakes it says Brembo but these brakes are designed especially for Porsche.
The Lamborghini Urus is just an Audi?
The Audi etron GT is a Taycan?
I think it is starting to become confusing these days what brand you are actually driving...lol. :)
 
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struther

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I wasn't asking about Apple.....
The parallels between this conversation about religion of products and manufacturing are very much relevant to the Apple comparison. Not quite sure why you replied with such a harsh response - seems uncalled for and not in the spirit of this conversation.
 

XLR82XS

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Not trying to be harsh - was asking if he meant 'probably' or 'actually'. Two different meanings.
 
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TayTaySD

TayTaySD

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Not trying to be harsh - was asking if he meant 'probably' or 'actually'. Two different meanings.
I admit I have NO facts as to what % Porsche fully manufactures on the Taycan, I was trying
to convey that I didn't have actual numbers but convey a sense about the data from
everything I have read. I'm an engineer, I fully understand and have done
the process of writing specs for sub-contractors to build to.

The amount of the car they fully manufacture will likely increase as we go forward.
That might be better or worse, hard to know ahead of time.
 

rich_r

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Intereting post with a lot of different angles:
-Oversensitivity to criticism of your favorite brand or car.
-What it means to be a "car guy"
-ICE vs EV
-What makes one manufacturer better than another

One thing I've noticed about this forum and really appreciate is that it's actually one of the most level-headed car forums I've participated in. In my past experience with other brands (mostly BMW), the slightest criticism or post about a problem will result in an near-instant flame war with accusations being hurled back and forth (with the obligatory "just buy a lexus" thrown in). Here there generally seems to be a more pragmatic approach with people genuinely trying to help others out to finding a solution.

I've also noticed that people here aren't dogmatic about ICE vs EV. Most here have ownned (and continue to own) ICE cars including 911s, etc. There is good disucsion around the pros and cons of each along with why an EV such as the Taycan could be a good fit (or not). On other forums, you'll either see something along the lines of "EVs suck because I can't drive 1000 miles a day and charge in 5 minutes and, also, I hate Tesla" or "Everyone should buy EVs (specifically Teslas) immediately and anyone who doesn't is a complete idiot". I think that's partly a commentary on how good a job Porsche did in designing the Taycan to appeal to both traditional car enthusiasts and those who only want an EV.

As for what makes one manufacturer "better" than another, well, that's largely in the eye of the beholder. There's a saying that there's no more "bad" cars anymore and I think that's largely true. It really depends on what qualities are most important to you. There's a tendency to try and oversimplify this down to who got the best rating by Car and Driver, JD Power or just metrics like 0-60 and range. I agree here with what others said that the amount of parts shared or purchased from a supplier, or where the car is assembled doesn't really matter. No manufacturer can (or should) try and do everything. But, it is their responsiblity to ensure that they provide the right specifications for the parts they purchase, test them thorougly and ensure that the expected quality is maintained. Based on my own knowledge and research, I think that Porsche may be the best at consistently delivering across all areas: high quality, good design, practicality, comfort, performance, durability,and efficiency. They aren't always the category leader in all of these, but they are very good across the board.
 

XLR82XS

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Well said rich. This forum does have level-headed users and I believe that is due to the fact that most of us here are dignified adults that do own/owned ICE and EV Porsches, not 16-year-old keyboard pounders with 35 years experience. I enjoy my experience here and look forward to continued use for years to come.

I myself have owned dozens of classic and modern vehicles over the years and appreciate ever one of them for their strong points. I own Porsches because I love the brand and the vehicles.
 

Goran

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First I will confess I am not a believer in organized religion. Please no flames, thank god we are
all different (Puns intended). I intend this as humor.

In my life I have always found it funny that "real car people" often become religious about their
particular cars and brands. I love cars, but have never been "brand fanatic", when I
want a car, I search for what I consider "the best" for my use cases, current
desires, $ and what is available.

What bugs me is when I make a statement like, "I wish the Heisenberg compensator on my
new LightSpeed 1000 was more intuitive". In steps a "real car guy" (sorry ladies, just using
this for affect, the church of Porsche is just getting around to admitting women) and
says, "You are just a whiner and must not be a real car guy because
you don't BELIEVE they make the best one on the market...". Like religions they stop
comparing facts, instead they rely on beliefs, most of which are NOT based on
facts... Marketing apostles love this...

Love my 4S, but it isn't perfect... BTW how many of you "real car guys" out there know that
Porsche does NOT manufacture the motors for our cars? Honestly I am 100% fine with that.
They probably write the spec, do some tests, take input from electric motor specialists
from inside VW and external companies and thus the motors are semi-custom. They
like all car "manufacturers" are really system integrators. Porsche probably actually
manufactures 10% (by cost) of the Taycan. They assemble parts, software etc from
hundreds of sub-contractors.

I took my Taycan to "Church" last Sunday (A Porsche ONLY car show). So many people
hovered and asked questions. I could see in about 70% of the "car guys" they actually
lusted after the Taycan performance, looks etc. But were held back because they
believed in the old testament, book of ICE, so stayed true to their old religious beliefs...
And I did know about the electric motors. They are Italian right. Magnetic Marelli I believe!?
 

JimBob

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Electric vehicles are an order of magnitude removed from ICE. A whole new skill set is required, along with all the specialized skills and equipment required to diagnose and service the vehicles. The manufacturers need time to sort this out. Porsche is fortunate to be in a part of the market that is somewhat differentiated from Tesla and can command a premium price.

For the guys competing head to head with Tesla like Volkswagen, Ford, etc. it's going to be brutal. They need to find a way to differentiate themselves.

If Tesla's technology is really that far beyond the competition then there are going to be some train wrecks to come.
 

daveo4EV

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Mouse House

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If Tesla's technology is really that far beyond the competition then there are going to be some train wrecks to come.
It isn't, people like to tout Tesla's advantage in battery technology (for example) but they are still running on thousands of commodity laptop cells. They were just using Mobileye for their driver assist technology, until they were booted from the programme for being dangerous. There is no secret sauce.

What Tesla did is understand the importance of transferring mobile UI to their cars, and get to market first in a significant way; and, importantly, set up a proprietary US charging network that is still the main advantage of the ecosystem.
 

norwbjorn

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Electric vehicles are an order of magnitude removed from ICE. A whole new skill set is required, along with all the specialized skills and equipment required to diagnose and service the vehicles. The manufacturers need time to sort this out. Porsche is fortunate to be in a part of the market that is somewhat differentiated from Tesla and can command a premium price.

For the guys competing head to head with Tesla like Volkswagen, Ford, etc. it's going to be brutal. They need to find a way to differentiate themselves.

If Tesla's technology is really that far beyond the competition then there are going to be some train wrecks to come.
i belive when quality brands pick up steam, Tesla will by history, 100 years of making cars and quality control matters. The lack of build quality, service and customersupport will at some point catch up with Tesla. But it will be remembered as a pioneer and have its place at museems :clap:
 

cgfrndpor

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Yes I have said most of their parts are built to Porsche specs, supplied by third parties.
It probably isn't true to call some of the parts "designed" by Porsche, but that can be argued.
Porsche like every other company is really a system integrator assembling parts
(another example here is Apple).

https://www.motortrend.com/news/inside-porsche-taycan-factory/
" As mentioned in our First Look story, Taycan will launch in two-motor form, with e-motors in two levels of tune. Core e-motor parts—rotor, stator, etc.—are from third-party suppliers. "

Personally I would love to see Apple buy Porsche. An excellent software, user interface, digital
integration company working with a premier car design & manufacturing!
one possible exception is Miele; they claim to manufacture almost all of their own parts
 

rich_r

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It isn't, people like to tout Tesla's advantage in battery technology (for example) but they are still running on thousands of commodity laptop cells. They were just using Mobileye for their driver assist technology, until they were booted from the programme for being dangerous. There is no secret sauce.

What Tesla did is understand the importance of transferring mobile UI to their cars, and get to market first in a significant way; and, importantly, set up a proprietary US charging network that is still the main advantage of the ecosystem.
Yep. I dont see much in terms of actual technology advantage; supposedly Teslas achieve better efficiency than similar EVs, but as we've all seen by now Tesla tends to take a very aggressive approach toward reporting things like range, 0-60, efficiency etc. Their other supposed advantage is vehicle software and OTA updates. Sure, their UI looks nice and their screens are responsive, but so are many other brands at this point. And while they may be quicker to release new updates and features, from what I can tell, many of the updates are just to a) fix stuff they broke in the last update due to inadequate testing b) making UI changes for the sake of it c) adding gimmicks. It is telling that they really haven't done much work on the core/useful apps like nav, media player and phone/bluetooth integation. And if you want to use a streaming service or nav provider that's not bundled with their system, you'll be strapping your phone to the dash like you would in a 10 year old car. Hardly cutting edge IMO. ANd of course they still lack tech features that other cars have had for years like HUD, surround view cameras, etc.

I agree that their main advantage now is the ease-of-use and coverage of their high speed charging network. Once EA gets "plug and charge" to work reliably that will largely address the first point, and I'm not sure the second one is truly an advatnage any more. Yes, they have more chargers, but the proportion of cars that use those chargers is higher than w/ other networks since there are more Teslas on the road.
 
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