This is a shame!

jasperp

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This is both ridiculous and hopeful:
"The most common faults raised by electric car drivers in the survey were software-related problems, though not issues with the electric motors or battery packs that power the vehicles. "

Software issues can be fixed.
 

WuffvonTrips

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While we're keeping spirits up ? as we hope one day to take delivery of a new Taycan-

That article prompted me to check the Porsche brand (not just EVs) summary on the Which survey (I think requires paid subscription to access).

"Some 27% of Porsche drivers with a young car aged up to four years old had to report to a garage at least once in the past year to get something fixed.. but only 4.3% had an issue that either stopped the car in its tracks or from starting altogether, which is slightly better than the average for cars this young.
...
Porsche gets three stars out of five for 0-4-year reliability, which is just average.
...
The more common issues reported by Porsche drivers in both age groups include a problem with the fuel system (although the numbers are inflated by a recall, which doesn't count against a manufacturer in the same way a fault that occurred does) and, separately, a problem with the exhaust/emission system."

EDIT- addition- from the Which magazine Taycan review-
" We’ve not heard from enough Porsche owners to rate this car, but we have heard from enough Porsche drivers to assess the brand’s overall reliability, which is mediocre*. "
(* mediocre in the literal sense, so rated 3 out of 5 stars)
 
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W1NGE

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Bigben

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Maybe also because Tesla is a software company with a lack of experience at building high quality / reliable cars. Being first to market in their segment also means that they have older, less reliable cars out there.

And stepping back a bit, I don’t see a battery pack and a big magnet being more problematic in the long term than a complex Diesel engine with lots of serviceable bits to it and tech such as turbocharging ??‍♂
 

GreenDay

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This article is noise imo. The data needs to be broken down across sub-categories like mechanical, software, structural etc. Also needs to be further divided into failure modes and issue severity. Even then it would still be noise. I'd much rather than 1000 software bugs impacting "reliability" then 10 mechanical issues impacting real reliability. Surface level aggregate stats being used to paint a story without context.
 
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Yes and no.

Anything meaning you can’t use your car converts it from a car to a millstone and is totally unacceptable IMO.

In the 50 years I have owned cars I have only once broken down on the road and only a couple of times needed a fix like more hydraulic oil in the hood folding mechanism of my Mercedes SL which needed dealer attention at the next service but didn’t stop me using the car.

The fact that an electronic fault may be fixable with software update is moot compared to a vehicle that doesn’t break down at all.

Unreliability is the biggest defect any car can have IMO since it means it is no longer actually a car.

I am very intolerant of bad design or implementation.

This article is noise imo. The data needs to be broken down across sub-categories like mechanical, software, structural etc. Also needs to be further divided into failure modes and issue severity. Even then it would still be noise. I'd much rather than 1000 software bugs impacting "reliability" then 10 mechanical issues impacting real reliability. Surface level aggregate stats being used to paint a story without context.
 


GreenDay

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Yes and no.

Anything meaning you can’t use your car converts it from a car to a millstone and is totally unacceptable IMO.

In the 50 years I have owned cars I have only once broken down on the road and only a couple of times needed a fix like more hydraulic oil in the hood folding mechanism of my Mercedes SL which needed dealer attention at the next service but didn’t stop me using the car.

The fact that an electronic fault may be fixable with software update is moot compared to a vehicle that doesn’t break down at all.

Unreliability is the biggest defect any car can have IMO since it means it is no longer actually a car.

I am very intolerant of bad design or implementation.
Nothing is perfect and everything breaks or will experience a defect during it's lifetime.

It's most definitely to be expected on a new platform like Porsches. However, to classify the car as less reliable wholesale is a stretch. Is it reliable to get you from A to B, it's core duty? Or is it reliable to ensure you can play Spotify through Apple Car play every time you get into the car? These are very different lenses and on different ends of the reliability and severity spectrum.

Now if we compare mechanical to mechanical, software to software, structural to structural, for EV vs. ICE, those comparisons would be interesting to see. If we compare the % of time you use the engine versus the % of time you use a particular software feature (like CarPlay), and look at those failure rates, that would also be interesting. The lens of which you view this data would provide more validity to that article but I didn't see those breakdowns in there. Hence it appeared as noise to me on face value.
 
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f1eng

f1eng

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Nothing is perfect and everything breaks or will experience a defect during it's lifetime.

It's most definitely to be expected on a new platform like Porsches. However, to classify the car as less reliable wholesale is a stretch. Is it reliable to get you from A to B, it's core duty? Or is it reliable to ensure you can play Spotify through Apple Car play every time you get into the car? These are very different lenses and on different ends of the reliability and severity spectrum.

Now if we compare mechanical to mechanical, software to software, structural to structural, for EV vs. ICE, those comparisons would be interesting to see. If we compare the % of time you use the engine versus the % of time you use a particular software feature (like CarPlay), and look at those failure rates, that would also be interesting. The lens of which you view this data would provide more validity to that article but I didn't see those breakdowns in there. Hence it appeared as noise to me on face value.
I don’t use in car entertainment much, and that wouldn’t be a problem of reliability anyway.
Anything stopping the car is unacceptable.

I agree some owners are more likely to nitpick than others though.

In my business - motor racing - there is a saying “to finish first, first you must finish”
However quick your car is it is useless if unreliable.
 

WuffvonTrips

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Just to clarify the addition I made to my original response- the article was a summary of Which? magazines survey. Which? magazine's current assessment of the reliability of the Taycan is:
"We’ve not heard from enough Porsche owners to rate this car"
 
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f1eng

f1eng

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Just to clarify the addition I made to my original response- the article was a summary of Which? magazines survey. Which? magazine's current assessment of the reliability of the Taycan is:
"We’ve not heard from enough Porsche owners to rate this car"
The shame to which I referred was EVs in general but it is intriguing that EVs are the least reliable and self-charging hybrids the most. Perhaps because a lot of them are Toyotas!
The other surprise is how much less reliable diesels are than petrol, I wouldn’t have expected that.
 

WuffvonTrips

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The shame to which I referred was EVs in general but it is intriguing that EVs are the least reliable and self-charging hybrids the most. Perhaps because a lot of them are Toyotas!
The other surprise is how much less reliable diesels are than petrol, I wouldn’t have expected that.
I wasn't sure if everyone was considering EVs in general rather than just the Taycan.
I'm with you on the surprise/intrigue re. the apparent correlation of complexity with reliability. I think you're on to something re Toyotas- they (& Lexus) plus Honda seem to have 5 star reliability ratings for EVs. I wonder whether another significant factor might be usage of the surveyed vehicles, e.g. in general diesels having a harder life and hybrids an easier one compared with petrols (also the profile of a typical Which? driver might differ from a more general pool).
Here's what Which? have to say on Hybrid reliability results-
"You might be surprised to find out that a car that has two methods of propulsion would be less problematic than a car with just a combustion engine, but it's true. Every year, we ask people to complete the annual Which? car survey. We gather details on what faults owners encountered in the 12 months prior to answering our survey. We find out what faults occur (and reoccur), how severe the faults are, breakdown rates and the time required for cars to be fixed, among other information. In our most recent survey, 47,013 owners told us about 55,833 cars that they own. The figures are very clear: hybrid owners suffer fewer faults and breakdowns. The faults that full hybrids do have are, on average, less severe than the average fault suffered by petrol and diesel cars. Which subsequently means they require less time off the road to be repaired. We don't yet have enough data to be able to report on plug-in hybrid cars as, like electric cars, they're still establishing themselves."
 

Windpower

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Unreliability is the biggest defect any car can have IMO since it means it is no longer actually a car.

I am very intolerant of bad design or implementation.
If you're looking for bullet proof reliability, buy a Honda.

I own a BMW, Telsa and Porsche. Each one has its quirks but I'd rather be driving them than a soulless car. Bullet proof reliability is not my #1 goal. It might be for my mother but not me.
 

TycanNewHampshire

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Maybe also because Tesla is a software company with a lack of experience at building high quality / reliable cars......
Not to argue, but if I may retort, my view is that ALL car companies are basically 'software companies' ever since the ICE switched from carb's to EFI, then the advancement of ABS, safety related software, adaptive cruise control, adaptive suspension, the list goes on and one. Now, even more so in 2022, this needs to be a core capability of a vehicle constructor. To me, there is no excuse that Porsche is not producing reliable tech. After all of their JV's and investments it is simply table-stakes now to expect that software 'works' and is reliable. They should have the competitive advantage with the driving engineering that they own with their IP and the retrograde or trade-off that we have to make for unreliable software is not one that I will except as an and/or. I can forgive extra bells and whistles that Tesla may produce on software, but I will not say that I am comfortable with their reliability issues....nor should Porsche accept this.
It is time they get with the times and put the R&D into tech/software, otherwise they will find themselves with a expertly handling vehicle that the market will not tolerate and the demographic will switch to the retired population, which is the only segment that can afford to bring it into the shop every couple of weeks.
I want Porsche to succeed, but we need to stop accepting that we need to make a trade-off for either reliable software or a well made/driving vehicle.
you own a Land Rover, so you know they went through the same thing.....despite making cars with much more reliable electronics the brand is still plagued with the stigma that one should just expect the tech to fail and to never purchase one out of warranty (which dramatically devalues the brand and resale values).
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