Top Gear: Taycan demolishes Tesla Model S in drag race (in the dry)

[Friedrich]

well.....my first impression of the video from Top Gear was that it seemed to pro Porsche, like a public relations ploy sponsored by Porsche......now people are saying that the Tesla was not in launch control mode based on what was visible on the Tesla dash screen, which of course would be cheating or incompetence from the Top Gear Tesla driver. The Tesla driver would have had to put the car in Ludicrus mode AND launch control.
A fair race needs someone that loves the tesla to drive the Tesla and to make sure it is driving in proper modes, and a Porsche fan drive the Porsche, and the video should show that everything is proper. The Top Gear video is actually a disservice to Porsche, now labeled in the infamous phrase "Fake News." Also testing one vehicle is the necessarily accurate either. There can be something wrong with that vehicle or the driver that day. (of course you can say that about any sport)

I am a Tesla and Porsche fan, but I do favor the Porsche as I consider it a sports car, whereas the Tesla S Raven is a sporty car. It always been my complaint about American "sports cars," the just drop a massive powerful engine in a car, but forget about the engineering details of a true sports car's handling.

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[Jenner]

now people are saying that the Tesla was not in launch control mode based on what was visible on the Tesla dash screen, which of course would be cheating or incompetence from the Top Gear Tesla driver. The Tesla driver would have had to put the car in Ludicrus mode AND launch control.

It's called TV editing. They used the shots they wanted to, not the shots that showed each exact race.
The numbers wouldn't be that close if they didn't use launch control and use Ludicrous mode.

Also this is a quote from Brooks aka Mr. Drag Times himself:
"from my experience the difference between launch mode and no launch mode is tiny"

See this video between P100D and 100D (launch control was not used on either car since the 100D doesn't have that feature):


The Taycan vs Model S would have looked the same way if they left it in Sport mode and didn't use launch control.

 

[Friedrich]

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-porsche-taycan-top-gear-drag-race-fake-results-video/

Actually, its Drag Times ia the one that debunks the Top Gear competition. Watch the video from Drag Times My guess is that the TEsla driver forgot to put the car in launch control and thought Ludicrus Plus was sufficient to put Tesla in fastest mode, which is obviously wrong.

It's called TV editing. They used the shots they wanted to, not the shots that showed each exact race.
The numbers wouldn't be that close if they didn't use launch control and use Ludicrous mode.

Also this is a quote from Brooks aka Mr. Drag Times himself:
"from my experience the difference between launch mode and no launch mode is tiny"

See this video between P100D and 100D (launch control was not used on either car since the 100D doesn't have that feature):


The Taycan vs Model S would have looked the same way if they left it in Sport mode and didn't use launch control.

 

[TheSnape]

https://insideevs.com/news/379926/musk-top-gear-tesla-taycan-race-clarification/

Putting Model S in range mode is the opposite of launch mode, as it minimizes performance in favor of range. Show should be called “Low Gear”!

Hey Musk, here's an idea for you, instead of being petty, why not design a car below 1.38m high which is the fastest electric saloon around the Nurburgring?

 

[felixtb]

https://insideevs.com/news/379926/musk-top-gear-tesla-taycan-race-clarification/



Hey Musk, here's an idea for you, instead of being petty, why not design a car below 1.38m high which is the fastest electric saloon around the Nurburgring?

The Snape,

Usually I like what you say but in this case I think you should keep your personal grudges to yourself and not on the forum. We are really quite a few people here that like both TESLA and Porsche and with all consideration...… This forum would not even exist had Mr. Musk not launched TESLAs assault on petrol transportation weather you like his personal style or not...…

 

[TheSnape]

The Snape,

Usually I like what you say but in this case I think you should keep your personal grudges to yourself and not on the forum. We are really quite a few people here that like both TESLA and Porsche and with all consideration...… This forum would not even exist had Mr. Musk not launched TESLAs assault on petrol transportation weather you like his personal style or not...…

I know, but I wasn't trying to be antagonistic, I genuinely believe that Tesla could learn something from what Porsche has done. I respect that Tesla pretty much created this whole segment - to come to one of the segment leaders from nothing takes a lot of skill indeed. But that said, I think it would benefit them if they could make the next generation Model S a lot lower and sportier. There's a lot both can learn from each other, Porsche basically built on a lot of the work Tesla has originally done - but in the case of the Taycan, Tesla can especially learn a lot from it. And in that context, sometimes some of the comments from Musk can be - frustrating. Cause I think he should be looking at the Taycan seriously - part of the reason that the Taycan has so much of its performance is its low aerodynamic nose - and thinking how that could be incorporated in the next Model S?

 

[felixtb]

OK see your point! Sorry for the snap!! but getting seriously tired of TESLA badgering on this site...…
You are, as usual, completely right now that I have understood what you were trying to say and Yes just as Porsche has learnt a lot from TESLA so could now TESLA from Porsche. Completely agreed!

 

[Jenner]

part of the reason that the Taycan has so much of its performance is its low aerodynamic nose - and thinking how that could be incorporated in the next Model S?

What? I have no idea what you are talking about here. Not sure if you do either.

Drag efficiency relates more to range and acceleration/efficiency at very high speed than it does 0-60 or any of the performance metrics that the Taycan and Model S are compared against. The 2 speed gear box makes a much larger difference than the aerodynamics when comparing performance between Porsche and Tesla.

Tesla's aerodynamics are only a tiny worse than the Taycan Turbo, but their cars are taller and have way more space/cargo capacity, larger frunk etc. So if anything it is impressive how the Tesla's are more taller, larger cargo capacity and still very aerodynamic. You might want to do more research before you post misinformation:

Taycan Turbo 0.22
Tesla Model 3 0.23
Tesla Model S 0.24
Taycan Turbo S 0.25

 

[TheSnape]

Tesla's aerodynamics are only a tiny worse than the Taycan Turbo, but their cars are taller and have way more space/cargo capacity, larger frunk etc. So if anything it is impressive how the Tesla's are more taller, larger cargo capacity and still very aerodynamic. You might want to do more research before you post misinformation:

You've answered your own question there. Tesla's aerodynamics are worse than the Taycan Turbo's because they're taller. Nothing at all is stopping them making the next generation Model S 1.378m - surely they could have a much better drag coefficient than the Taycan if they did this, right?

And secondly, I don't know how you can claim I'm spreading misinformation when your own figures show the Taycan Turbo has a lower drag coefficient than either the Model 3 or the Model S

And finally, there's no need to take this so seriously - we're merely talking about a couple of cars here. I think it would be better if we all treat each other with respect here

 

[Jenner]

I didn't ask any questions.

Tesla chose to make the Model S taller! They don't need to "learn" how to make a shorter car from Porsche. Tesla didn't set out to make a sports car. They set out to make a practical EV that is slippery (for efficiency and range not performance) and happens to be extremely fast in a straight line. They can choose to make it whatever height they want to, they don't need to listen to you or learn from Porsche. They also have the Roadster 2 coming out that will demolish everything out there and be lower. Your post about learning from Porsche and making a short car and it's low nose being directly tied to Taycan performance is just nonsense.

 

[Friedrich]

What? I have no idea what you are talking about here. Not sure if you do either.

Drag efficiency relates more to range and acceleration/efficiency at very high speed than it does 0-60 or any of the performance metrics that the Taycan and Model S are compared against. The 2 speed gear box makes a much larger difference than the aerodynamics when comparing performance between Porsche and Tesla.

Tesla's aerodynamics are only a tiny worse than the Taycan Turbo, but their cars are taller and have way more space/cargo capacity, larger frunk etc. So if anything it is impressive how the Tesla's are more taller, larger cargo capacity and still very aerodynamic. You might want to do more research before you post misinformation:

Taycan Turbo 0.22
Tesla Model 3 0.23
Tesla Model S 0.24
Taycan Turbo S 0.25

I don't see the point of your post, other than to be argumentative as The Snape was completely accurate in his observation. Clearly, if the Tesla redesigned the (2012) Model S design, to be more sportier in the front, then the cars drag co-efficient would be reduced. But Tesla is a practical sedan, not a sports car, so the design is that of a sedan. I am also a HUGE Tesla fan, and believe the Model S is probably one of the best ever carefully designed and beautiful sedan (but in much need of a new makeover with a 8 year old design!) The Taycan was designed to be a sports sedan and the Tesla was designed to be roomy sedan. If these were ICE vehicles, they would never even be compared to this degree. Also, to put things in perspective, the Toyota Prius 4rth generation and the Hyundai Ioniq has drag coefficient of .24 and a bullet from a handgun has a drag coefficient of .29

Also, I have also seen on the internet that the Turbo S has a different drag coefficient than the Turbo, It seems like doesn't make sense. At some point, someone mix up the drag coefficients for the different front ends available on the Taycan, which have NOTHING to do with whether Turbo S or Turbo. For the drag coffiencent to be different, the frontal area measured would have to be different; however, unless the Sports package is chosen for the Turbo S, which could also be chosen for the Turbo and the 4s, then the reference area used for measuring the drag coeffiencent would be the same. Of course different tire sizes can also effect it.

The drag coefficient

is defined as

where:

is the drag force, which is by definition the force component in the direction of the flow velocity

is the mass density of the fluid or air,

is the flow speed of the object relative to the fluid,

is the reference area.

The quote from Porsche website on the drag coeffienct
"With a Cd value from 0.22, the Taycan offers the best drag coefficient of all current Porsche models. The front surface area is 2.33 m2. This results in an effective drag of 0.513 m2."
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/products/taycan/aerodynamics-18554.html
I am still trying to see where the ORIGINGAL source of the drag coefficient came for the Turbo S of .25. I may be wrong, but I believe it the drag coefficient of the sports package bumper, which looks sportier, but is actually less aerodynamic. Also the different tires on the Turbo S or any Taycan could effect it dramatically. So there could be trade-off between handling and drag.

I also uploaded for fun a photo of a car designed by Ferdinand Porsche in 1939 that has a drag coefficient of .18. The car was designed by Porsche but actually built by Mercedes.

 

[Skystorm]

It´s the 21" wider wheels makes the 0.25 not the body... so if you put 21" Wheels on a Turbo you got the same factor as Turbos

 

[Friedrich]

It´s the 21" wider wheels makes the 0.25 not the body... so if you put 21" Wheels on a Turbo you got the same factor as Turbos

I think you are right. Since last post, I did find information from Porsche. The reference area (A in the formula, the front section of vehicle ) of the Turbo and Turbo S are the same 2.33 m. squared, meaning only the f (drag force aka air resistance) is what varies.......speculating caused by the wheels.
So if someone put skinny Tesla wheels on the Porsche, or the 19 inch wheels of the 4S it would have better drag coefficient.... And obviously the wheels of the Turbo and Turbo S changed the drag significantly by almost 14%....well significant in relative terms. But then the smaller wheels there will be loss of handling, especially in the slalom which to me is more important than a straight 0-100kmh

 

[SHN]

I think you are right. Since last post, I did find information from Porsche. The reference area (A in the formula, the front section of vehicle ) of the Turbo and Turbo S are the same 2.33 m. squared, meaning only the f (drag force aka air resistance) is what varies.......speculating caused by the wheels.
So if someone put skinny Tesla wheels on the Porsche, or the 19 inch wheels of the 4S it would have better drag coefficient.... And obviously the wheels of the Turbo and Turbo S changed the drag significantly by almost 14%....well significant in relative terms. But then the smaller wheels there will be loss of handling, especially in the slalom which to me is more important than a straight 0-100kmh

If I remember correctly I read on Porsche news site that the different drag coefficient has something do with the front intake, if it was closed or not. I don't think the wheels have something to do with drag, but rolling resistance.

 

[felixtb]

If I remember correctly I read on Porsche news site that the different drag coefficient has something do with the front intake, if it was closed or not. I don't think the wheels have something to do with drag, but rolling resistance.

Actually the wider tires are the cause of the higher drag coef. and the Turbo S will always have a higher drag than the Turbo when using Porsche specified wheels and tires since the PCCB package requires the 21" wheels and is standard on the Turbo S....... However, if you just put the winter wheels (20") with the narrower tires then suddenly the Turbo S cV will be reduced (and so will be the handling)... don't know by how much though...

I know I contradicted myself but its actually not me its rather Porsche that is doing the contradiction........

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