[US] - attempts @ real world testing for 400V > 50 kW - adventures continue - data is shared here!

[daveo4EV]

[UPDDATE] - @ron_b in post #18 notes the charger is mislabled - and has secretly upgraded this charger to a higher end 800V charger - that explains the 150 kW charge rate I saw - so while I still consider this data and posting an interesting read - it appears we’re going to have to try harder to find an actual 400V/>50 kW charger - this in my opinion just highlight how hard it is to nail down facts and pros/cons for this particluar option. Big internet thank you for @ron_b for his assistance in this quest.

​

There has been much debate regarding this option from porsche - with some people (like myself) suggesting it's cheap insurance - and other posters suggesting there are not a lot of 400V EV chargers that are greater than 50 kW - both sides have valid data and facts on their side so it is truly hard to make an informed decision. Further confusing the situation is that if new chargers are installed and they are 800V (instead of 400V DC) chargers this option becomes less necessary and/or useful.

I'm firmly biased and in the camp that no one ever told me that their EV charged 'too fast' - so anything you can do to increase charging speed is a welcome feature, especially one that will be used "on the road" where you are more likely to be "waiting" for the charge to finish - and fast DC charging is clearly an “on the road” option…

Further complicating this feature is there is little if any feedback about what voltage you are using when you are plugged into a charger - the Taycan does not tell you it's using 400V or 800V during a charging session, and none of the FastDC chargers I've encountered in the wild offer that information. It's also not like Porsche will "announce" - Hey you're now using your $460 option during a charging session - so this option is a "silent" feature - that will only "kick in" when planets align and you happen to "encounter" a 400V charger that is greater than 50 kW…

there is also confusion about the future expansion of EV chargers - is everything "new" installed in the future going to be 800V or are EV charging networks going to also be installing 400V charger but bumping them up from 50 kW to 100, 125 & 150 kW?

to say this is a conundrum is an understatement…

So in order to stop discussing this "in theory" I decided to embark on a quest to find a 400V FastDC charger that is greater than 50 kW - and then visit this charger and observe first hand what my charging speed was during a charging session.

In order to do this I turned to the trusty "plug-share" application and setup up a charging station filter as seen below:

​

I turned "off" ElectrifyAmerica because I don't know if they have or don't have non-800V charging stations - so I focused on any charging stations that were CCS/SAE - 70 kW or great - and not Electrify America.

that filter yielded this set of chargers in my area:

I then reviewed the list and selected a charger that was likely to be useful for this test. I wanted to travel far enough from Santa Cruz such that my SOC would be down to allow a maximum charge rate, but I didn't want a "real road trip" - I also wanted to drive to a location that had more than one > 50 kW charger incase I encountered congestion or equipment difficulties. I eventually chose this quite nice EVGo station in Foster City…

I felt there was a good chance EVGo stations are not 800V - and both the EVGo application and Plugshare reported the stations were more than 50 kW.

At this point we encounter one very interesting fact on this little question - none of the EV charging data sets (Porsche,NAV PlugShare, EVGo) could agree on the "maximum" charge rate for this particular station.

• Porsche In-Car Nav: lists this station as 30 kW​
• EVGo's own App: lists this station as 80 kW​
• Plug-Share: Lists these stations as 100 kW​

so right off the bat - it's very unclear what the maximum charge rate is at these stations at this location - the only way to tell for sure is to actually "visit" the station.

so I did…

and what I found confirms my bias that this is a must have $460 option…

1st off the station is _NOT_ an 800V station - the power sticker on the side of the station lists DC output in the range of 200-550 VDC

​

so I pull up - plugin - use the EVGo App to start the charging session - and I'm immediately rewarded with a result

114 kW is the "opening Bid" for the charging session - 2x the 50 kW 400V limit without the option - but it got better from there - during the session I peaked and sustained 150.x kW for some significant portion of the session…

so not only were all the apps wrong about this charging stations maximum charging rate - we were pegging the meter with a sweet and ohhhh so fast charging rate of the maximum 150 kW - this was better than expected…

below is the raw data and a chart tracking the charging session from 43% SOC to 99% SOC

as you can see the Taycan is a rock star for sustained non-tapered charging rate - and doesn't drop below the 50 kW charging rate until around the 93% SOC - so for 50% of the SOC (93% - 43% where we started) the charge rate is above the 50 kW rate - that means for charging from 0% to 93% you _WILL_ benefit from the >50 kW option should you encounter one of these chargers in the wild.

the entire session was a clean 45 minutes - and delivered 52 kWh in 45 min - that an adjusted average rate of charge of 70 kW

at the maximum rate of 50 kW the same session would've take 60+ minutes or 33% longer…if we had been charging from a lower SOC (say 10%) the higher sustained rate from 10% to 43% would've made a significant difference in charging stop time saved…

to me the data pretty clearly indicates this is a win for a easy $460 option in terms of time saved.

I wrap up some summary thoughts in the the post following this.

 

[daveo4EV]

what are my thoughts:

• there are stations "in the wild" that are >50 kW and not 800V - without this option you can't use those stations at their full capacity
  • this experiment proved that
• the Taycan dropped from 150 kW to 100 kW at 55% SOC - I don't know if that was the car/battery or the charging station - there is no way to tell
  • I'm going to agree with @andrewket and guess it was the station and not the Taycan
• it's pretty clear to me _NO ONE_ actually knows the actual maximum charging rate - this station was supposed to be 80 kW according to EVgo but I got 150 kW for a significant potation of the session
  • who's to say "maximum rated 50 kW" stations can't go faster - if you don't have the upgraded hardware you'll never know how fast you could've charged
  • also I think as stations continue to get installed there will continue to be a "mix" of 400/500V stations and 800/900V stations - I don't think it's reasonable to assume all new/future installs are going to be 800V
• I obtained 52 kWh or 56% SOC in 45 minutes - that is a rate of 1.25% SOC per minute of charge - we can extrapolate that the 5% to 43% run would be 30 minutes - I'm going to call it 25 minutes cause there will be less tapering at the lower SOC's
  • that's a total estimated charging session from 5% to 99% of 45 + 25 or 70 minutes - 1 h 10 min to charge a Taycan from 5% to 99% - that's really quite good
  • if you didn't have the upgrade the estimated time at a maximum rate of 50 kW would 104 minutes - or 1 h 44 minutes
  • the slower option would take an extra 34 minutes of "waiting" for your car to finish charging.
• everyone says there are few if any >50 kW 400V stations - but they are wrong - there are actually over 20,000 400V > 50kW fast charging stations -
  • they just have the wrong plug - Tesla's supercharger network is entirely 400V and greater than 50 kW (with 72 kW being the "slow" ones)
  • it's not impossible to imagine Tesla and the other guys are going to be forced to merge these networks to allow EV's to roam freely - _IF_ (big if) the Tesla supercharger network becomes compatible with CCS vehicles - boom that's an entire network of 400V fast DC chargers that are great than 50 kW
  • I don't believe this is likely anytime soon, but it not implausible over time - I don't believe it's in anyone's real interest to have these two separate standards.
  • europe already has Tesla stations using the same "plug" as the Taycan - and we know they technically work cause some superchargers have charged non-Teslas when they are misconfigured to not check the vehicle's ID
    • that right there is a full built out and very very reliable 400V/150 kW charging network - ready to be used if it ever happens at the business level

what really caught my attention today is that my Taycan charged at 150 kW at an 80 kW maximum charge station today in Foster City - and honestly I think these maximum rate chargers are fuzzy math - I'm going to test some 50 kW stations next to see if they are really limited to 50 kW - my bet is they are not - and they can pump out more like 60 to 70 kW - again exceeding the specified maximum - Kinda like how the Taycan is limited to 9.6 kW in the US- but really it's not - it's 11 kW in the US cause it's the same 11 kw AC/DC converter Porsche ships to the rest of the world…

My honest opinion and recommendation is there is _NO_ reason _NOT_ to check this box on your Taycan build - all it will do is maximize your charge rate when it can when you are on the road waiting for your charging session to finish - it's your time it will save, and there is nothing more precious than time…and by all Porsche standards $460 is virtually nothing in the grand scheme of things - and who knows how much time it will save you over the life of the car and your fast charging usage.

put me firmly in the camp that this option is a NO BRAINER - and also there are probably more 400V >50 kW stations than anyone knows about, and there are certainly not going to be fewer of them in the future - even as the 800V network gets built out it's not unreasonable to assume there will be a mix of 400v & 800v sites installed dictated by cost, location, electrical supply, equipment availability, and "mix" of vehicles that support 800V - most CCS vehicles being announced are 400V vehicles - if 800V BEV's remain the minority why would charging networks build out 800V networks when they can offer 150 kW with 400V equipment - and 150 kW is pretty darn fast…

 

[daveo4EV]

my friend, neighbor and partner in crime @ron_b has a 400V 50 kW Taycan - I'm requesting his perspective and any test data he is willing to share if he would consider visiting the same station or a similar station to see what his charging results demonstrate.

 

[daveo4EV]

if you visit the foster city location

1030 E Hillsdale Blvd, San Mateo 94404

I used the charger named "Annalise"

4 stalls - all were unoccupied - when I started - a Nissan Leaf plugged in about at the 90% SOC point during my session

it was 10 Amish in the morning - air temp was 57F, battery temp was 82F at the start of the session…sunny partly cloudy.

 

[andrewket]

Thanks for all the effort. The charge curve is very odd. I suspect the charger (the external one, not the internal one) hit a thermal limit. The older chargers are not great at sustaining their max rate. Some have air filters that have never been cleaned, etc.

 

[chrisk]

Thanks for the write up!
To play devil's advocate, there is an EA station at Belmont about 5 miles away, which still makes the $460 option useless in my opinion. I have the option, but I wish had spent that money on black rear logo instead ?

 

[daveo4EV]

EA station at Belmont about 5 miles away,

quoting EA station locations to me and assuming their existence invalidates more reliable network makes me laugh - your statement actually makes the option MORE important in my view - because EA stations are so notoriously unreliable that when I pull in the Belmont station at 5% SOC and find the EA station inoperable (a common scenario with EA) - I'll need to go elsewhere to charge - at that point in time the 80 kW EVGo station less than 5 miles away and my $460 option that will save me 34 minutes is an invaluable option…

but that perspective is only valid as long as EA remains a "sh*t show" - but I"m not optimistic EA's going to get better any time soon

we can continue to politely disagree - $460 valuable option if you value your time.

or to put it another way - this option gives me the freedom not to rely on EA for a decent charging speed - it opens up the fast charging options to beyond the 800V EA network - which given EA’s track record is a very very good thing - and to date I have my quibbles with EVGo but they are much more reliable in my experience than EA as one concrete example.

 

[Torv]

IMHO, $460 is nothing in the scheme of things, after all we’re not talking about some cheap entry level Japanese EV here. Having that inexpensive option offers more charging flexibility down the road should that option’s specific protocol become more common during the years of ownership. Now if that option were say $1200, I might think differently or least ponder it further, but ultimately I’d probably get it then too. You can’t have too many charging standards available to speed things up even if it’s an incremental speed improvement and offers greater flexibility at more charging stations.

 

[Tay Tay]

The amount of time you spent researching this option is literally more than the amount of extra time I'll spend waiting because I didn't get it ?

 

[ron_b]

my friend, neighbor and partner in crime @ron_b has a 400V 50 kW Taycan - I'm requesting his perspective and any test data he is willing to share if he would consider visiting the same station or a similar station to see what his charging results demonstrate.

I do hope to test at the same or similar station and will record. to be clear I would never stayed that there are not such Chargers in the wild that are over 50 KW and only 400 volt. I am only stating that Electrify America is very universal and I have never seen the temptation to have to use another Network, and that there are a minimal number of such 400v stations as well.

The spec tag that you showed clearly stated 125 Amp Max up to 550 volts, even at that voltage which I do not believe Taycan DC-DC converter would even use you would only have 68 KW Max. I do not understand how you got the 150 KW that you show on your screen from a charger with that kind of tag.
I'm very familiar with the 125 amp Big boy Chargers that evgo uses, I have charged at dozens of them with my Chevy Bolt. There I get about 48kW, as the voltage is lower.

Also can you please tell me the battery temp when you started that session?

 

[daveo4EV]

Also can you please tell me the battery temp when you started that session?

air temp was 57F, battery temp was 82F at the start of the session…sunny partly cloudy.

 

[daveo4EV]

do not understand how you got the 150 KW that you show on your screen from a charger with that kind of tag.

I know! right! and even when it dropped - it dropped to 100 kW! I really wondering about all this.

 

[daveo4EV]

here’s a pic from the charger’s perspective showing 150 kW 3 min into the session - and already up to 51% from 43% when I started…at this point in the charge session 7.1 kWh had been delivered - that’s an average charge rate of 142 kW in that 3 minutes - the station immediately provided a very very high charge rate.

 

[yuanshiang]

here’s a pic from the charger’s perspective showing 150 kW 3 min into the session - and already up to 51% from 43% when I started…at this point in the charge session 7.1 kWh had been delivered - that’s an average charge rate of 142 kW in that 3 minutes - the station immediately provided a very very high charge rate.

the fact that there is so much uncertainty re: charger voltage/max kw has led me to add the option and just forget about it. though still curious to see what charging rates @ron_b sees at the same or similar station!

 

[epirali]

I simply view the option as good insurance. If I never use it the next owner may appreciate it. If I end up needing it on one trip it would have been worth it. As others have said I wouldn’t say the same about a $40K or lower EV, but let‘s be realistic, I think the steering wheel on the Taycan is a more expensive option!

Sponsored