Tsingtao

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2021
Threads
12
Messages
375
Reaction score
461
Location
US
Vehicles
Toucan RWD
Country flag
I’m not Uber driver either, but I have school age children, so sometimes it feels like I am.
I know that feeling as well. It is really a disappointment that full self-driving coupled with Google/Apple car-bot-taxis are not yet a thing. 🚖
Sponsored

 

bergs

Well-Known Member
First Name
Pete
Joined
Apr 26, 2022
Threads
1
Messages
46
Reaction score
14
Location
Woodside, CA
Vehicles
'22 Taycan RWD, '20 Cayenne, '18 Model 3
Country flag
I built a new house and did a 100A circuit with two 50A dedicated chargers. This way I can charge two EVs simultaneously at 40A. I initially was going to do the older gen 2 80A charger on my 100amp circuit but thought this would be better future proofing for an all EV or multiple EV household.
this is totally the way to go.
 

Avantgarde

Well-Known Member
First Name
Eugene
Joined
Apr 4, 2022
Threads
7
Messages
229
Reaction score
329
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Vehicles
22' Taycan RWD PB+, 21' X5 Xdrive45e, 09' Cayman
Country flag
I don't see it so much as me saying I don't need to charge faster, but that I'm under 25 miles from an EA DCFC. and even if I was headed in the complete opposite direction it would only be 75 miles to the nearest DCFC. I have convenient fast charging options such that I could get home with 0% charge, and be able to begin more or less any trip within two hours. The math in my mind just doesn't check out that I should pay extra to solve a scenario that I'm simply not worried about

In my mind, I either need to leave ASAP and DCFCs are the best way to do any charging I need, or I don't need to hit a specific arrival time, and so I don't really have a problem. That's really the core of it is that to me home charging is meant to cover your day to day stuff and handle planned long distance trips, and DCFC is meant for going far and fast, and will only become more convenient in the coming years.

If others feel that it buys them peace of mind, I won't say you're wrong to do so. For others reading this, I would simply point out that they should evaluate the cost/benefit of using a DCFC when needed vs purchasing a 100A EVSE.
Plus the "worst case scenario" documented up here which involves your Cat getting UTI 2 hours before a long distance trip, which was supposed to happen right after another long distance trip (no disrespect), would just result in a 10 minute stop at a EA fast charging station. So the very low probability event we are talking about does not have a fatal implication. The question is covering this small probability worth $2500? Not for everyone. I would say this applies to the "majority" of taycan owners. My issue is positioning that $2500 installation as a "must have" is misleading for many.
 

Jhenson29

Well-Known Member
First Name
Jeremy
Joined
Feb 9, 2021
Threads
35
Messages
2,770
Reaction score
4,124
Location
St. Louis, MO
Vehicles
2016 Macan S; 2021 Taycan 4S; 2023 911 GTS Cab
Country flag
Plus the "worst case scenario" documented up here which involves your Cat getting UTI 2 hours before a long distance trip, which was supposed to happen right after another long distance trip (no disrespect), would just result in a 10 minute stop at a EA fast charging station.
Lol…no…
Maybe in a best case scenario it could only be 10 min...assuming there's a station actually on the route, and at least some charger works, and isn't already in use, and isn't getting reduced for any number of reason, etc...

As it happens, there was no EA charger on the route. The closest one was an extra 20 miles and has bad recent reviews on plug share for only 1 out of 4 chargers working. 🙄

Plugshare shows two other non-EA locations that were on the route, both with fewer and lower power chargers, and both with recent complaints about power limiting.

So...no...I don't think it would result in an extra 10 min stop somewhere.

And all that aside, charging at home with time the car was just sitting there anyway is still better than stopping even for 10 min, let alone likely longer due to numerous issues outlined above.

So the very low probability event we are talking about does not have a fatal implication.
First, while the UTI may be low probably, there can be any number of reasons for an issue. Second, no one said it was fatal. Just that the faster you can charge, the better. It covers more cases.

The question is covering this small probability worth $2500? Not for everyone.
I agree. Not for everyone. I've told people more than once on other threads on here not to option the 19.2kW unless they have both the capacity and a use case.

I would say this applies to the "majority" of taycan owners.
Meh. I think the majority would happily accept faster charging. I think it's just an issue of cost. People can evaluate that part on their own. And if they can't, they were never going to make the right choice except by chance in the first place.

My issue is positioning that $2500 installation as a "must have" is misleading for many.
I agree that saying it's a "must have" is misleading. But I also missed where it was said.

I'll admit I didn't read every word of every post on this thread, but I don't recall anyone saying it's a "must have" . Just that it's better to charge faster, and specifically using the metric of charging speed. Seems true.

I've also chimed in that it depends on use case (post #11) and that faster charging covers more use cases (post #38). I think both of those are true.

I guess you can quote where someone said it's a "must have" for me so I can read that.
 

Avantgarde

Well-Known Member
First Name
Eugene
Joined
Apr 4, 2022
Threads
7
Messages
229
Reaction score
329
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Vehicles
22' Taycan RWD PB+, 21' X5 Xdrive45e, 09' Cayman
Country flag
I think the majority would happily accept faster charging.
To be clear I would also "happily accept" faster charging. I would even happily accept a 350 kw DC charger at home. I would happily accept a home insurance policy against acid rains or elephant attacks .... if they were all free, why not? We can argue about this forever, I am not trying to be annoying just bringing a different perspective. And trust me there is no shortage of the opposite perspective, as everyone seems to be convinced "you wanna get the fastest charging possible at home". Even my friends who have never driven an EV in their lives are like "oh yeah you should definitely install it right away man, get the fastest". I just realized that majority of this advice is impulsive/psychological or without really thinking through or experiencing the alternative. This is your home, you naturally spend A LOT of time there, it is not like a gas station. My advice to anyone, especially people who are not sure if they will be in their current home for a long period, don't hurry, get the car, experience it for a week, a month and then decide. You may be surprised. And in this forum when people ask questions like "do I need air suspension or rear wheel steering" - they wan't a balanced perspective. They are not looking for theoretical proofs that "there could never be a scenario when you'd need such an option". Anyways, I will maintain my contrarian point of view here, in case some people benefit from it.
 


OP
OP
daveo4EV

daveo4EV

Well-Known Member
First Name
David
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Threads
160
Messages
5,793
Reaction score
8,599
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
Cayenne Hybrid, 911(s) GT3/Convertable
Country flag
Dec. 2022 - updated post #1 to include Porsche's recommendation for a Hubble NEMA 14-50 socket - this is good advice and should be followed by anyone installing a NEMA 14-50/6-50 circuit for their EV charging needs.

see post #1 for the update.
 

JimBob

Well-Known Member
First Name
James
Joined
Jan 26, 2021
Threads
70
Messages
896
Reaction score
1,033
Location
Toronto Canada
Vehicles
Taycan 4S
Country flag
Well this video is appro pro. Bit promotional but the topic has been somewhat touched on before. Just quoting standards isn't sufficient. You should be informed enough to ask your electrician intelligent questions, but best to not do it yourself. And make sure your electrician is experienced with EVSE.

 
OP
OP
daveo4EV

daveo4EV

Well-Known Member
First Name
David
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Threads
160
Messages
5,793
Reaction score
8,599
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
Cayenne Hybrid, 911(s) GT3/Convertable
Country flag
Time marches on…

There is quite an obsession among some owners about charging speed. I’ve been driving plug-ins and EVs past 1.5 years. We do 30-40 miles a day and we only have a Level 1 charger, a mere 1.2kw worked out almost perfectly for us so for, believe it or not. …
it's worth noting Porsche no longer recommends using L1 charger for daily use…as to why I have yet to get an actual reason - but they pretty clearly do not want you doing it based on their NTSB bulletin…

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...-related-porsche-ntsb-article-analysis.13902/
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2022/MC-10222530-0001.pdf

General Precautions on (125V) Supply Cable Use
The “domestic” (125V) supply cable is provided for emergency use only, and should not be used by customers for daily home charging. Please discuss installation and use of a suitable 250V circuit with all customers.
 


Avantgarde

Well-Known Member
First Name
Eugene
Joined
Apr 4, 2022
Threads
7
Messages
229
Reaction score
329
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Vehicles
22' Taycan RWD PB+, 21' X5 Xdrive45e, 09' Cayman
Country flag
Time marches on…



it's worth noting Porsche no longer recommends using L1 charger for daily use…as to why I have yet to get an actual reason - but they pretty clearly do not want you doing it based on their NTSB bulletin…

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...-related-porsche-ntsb-article-analysis.13902/
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2022/MC-10222530-0001.pdf
Interesting thanks for letting me know. I have been doing this (plus free EA chargers 5 minutes from my place when needed) after being quoted $3500 for new wiring. I am curious about the reasoning though, wondering if it is a charger issue or car issue. I use the PMC+ to also daily charge our BMW x5 45 which has a 17 kw usable battery and gets fully charged overnight with L1.
 

satchurator

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2021
Threads
42
Messages
634
Reaction score
600
Location
Massachussets, USA
Vehicles
MY22 CT4
Country flag
as to why I have yet to get an actual reason - but they pretty clearly do not want you doing it based on their NTSB bulletin…
I forget if it was speculation here in the forum or attached reasoning in a different communication from Porsche, but doesn't it have to do with the variability in owners' home wiring e.g. 30+ year old cabling and outlets, outlets on shared circuits, things generally not being well suited to running at max amperage rating for many hours?

Beyond the PMCC and PMC+ L2 heat issue, I suppose inadequate home wiring would be an issue for any brand's L1 EVSE. I bet this other risk got flagged while they were huddling PR/legal/tech to work through PMCx-melt-gate.
 
OP
OP
daveo4EV

daveo4EV

Well-Known Member
First Name
David
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Threads
160
Messages
5,793
Reaction score
8,599
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
Cayenne Hybrid, 911(s) GT3/Convertable
Country flag
I forget if it was speculation here in the forum or attached reasoning in a different communication from Porsche, but doesn't it have to do with the variability in owners' home wiring e.g. 30+ year old cabling and outlets, outlets on shared circuits, things generally not being well suited to running at max amperage rating for many hours?

Beyond the PMCC and PMC+ L2 heat issue, I suppose inadequate home wiring would be an issue for any brand's L1 EVSE. I bet this other risk got flagged while they were huddling PR/legal/tech to work through PMCx-melt-gate.
I believe I was the source of 'home wiring" speculation - I'll stand by that but moderate my position given @whitex excellent comments from this thread…but my speculation was informed by conversations I've had with Chevy engineers regarding the Bolt and specifically Chevy's choice to default to 8 amps for 120V/L1 charging…see below.

I think it's a combination of factors we are aware of and not aware of that Porsche is now downplaying L1 charging as viable - as to what the overriding concern was - well I wasn't in the room/eMail thread where that internal Porsche discussion took place - so we can only speculate…but the NTSB article authored by Porsche is pretty clear as to their position - L1 charging is for emergency use only and not a "daily" charging solution - and recommended limit of 12 hours vs. the 72+ hours it would take to fully charge a Taycan at 5% SOC or less…@ L1 charging rates.

Facts I do know (in no particular order)
  • charging at 9.6 kW yields 8.46 kW inside the vehicle - representing a loss of 1.14 kW in "charging overhead"
    • now some of this overhead is "fixed" cost and some is proportional to the amount of raw power
    • but if it was all "fixed' cost a raw rate of L1 charging at 1.44 kW - 1.14 kW would be a net of 0.3 kW for the battery - that's not much power flowing to the battery
  • GM ChevyBolt defaults to 8 amps when charging via L1 (120V) - this is enforced by the vehicle _NOT_ the EVSE and can only be temporarily overridden by in vehicle software controls
    • in speaking with a Chevy Engineer he specifically referred to "bad experiences" with some homes "existing 120V wiring"
      • overheating was a factor - leading to EVSE induced wire failures
      • frequent breaker trips interrupting charging (even on non-shared circuits) - customer dissatisfaction
      • the fact the L1 circuits tend not to be dedicated circuits - so who knows what else is competing for available capacity during a charging session
      • customers waking up to partially charged batteries because of mid-session power loss due to circuit overload protection during the charging session
    • basically he said for reliability and safety they choose the 8 amp charging load to accommodate the wide range of residential 120V circuit quality they experienced in their customers with EV's prior to the Bolt…
    • this change rolled out with the Bolt has resulted in a statistically significant reduction in customer issues with L1 charging (fewer customer support issues escalated) - at 8 amps Bolt L1 charging is a better citizen on commonly shared 120V residential circuits.
  • many homes I've personally encountered really really won't handle continuous L1/120V/12 amp loads for multiple hours on end - the quality of many residential circuits/breakers/outlets I've encountered is abysmal and simply not up to the task for that type of continuous 80% load factor - I personally can see this sort of recommendation simply coming about from "an abundance of caution perspective" even if lacking direct experierence.
    • there is virtually no electrical appliances that run at fixed load for hours on end with no "breaks" like EVSEs do - even high load devices (hot plates, space heaters, AC's, etc) tend to cycle on/off - but do not run flat-line at full rated capacity for 4+ hours
    • an L1/120V/12 amp load can run continously for 70+ hours to charge a Taycan - no appliance other than EVSE's have this type of usage - few if any residential home circuits were conceived/designed/installed with this style of load in mind.
  • I personally subscribe to the theory that the Taycan for what ever reasons not disclosed, is not very good with "low current" charging situations - and basically dribbling along for many many hours on end at 1.44 kW or less is simply "not the Taycan's thing" - I do not believe porsche has disclosed all the possible "factors" as to why this is the case - but I would believe there are a number of issues where this is not the ideal raw charge rate - probably having more to do with components in the "food chain" of the vehicle, but not specifically the battery.
 
OP
OP
daveo4EV

daveo4EV

Well-Known Member
First Name
David
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Threads
160
Messages
5,793
Reaction score
8,599
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
Cayenne Hybrid, 911(s) GT3/Convertable
Country flag
UPDATE: post #1 has been updated to reflect Porsche's official position that L1 charging is no longer considered viable for "daily use" and is now considered for "emergency use only" and no longer than 12 hours duration - or about 15 kWh of effective charging capacity - for about 40 miles of drivable range…this is not me talking - it's Porsche!

see post #1 for a reference to the NTSB document.

but post #1 now reflects Porsche's official position regarding L1 charging.
Sponsored

 
 




Top