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daveo4EV

daveo4EV

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(P.S. everything else being equal slower charging is also better for battery)
the range of AC L1 to L2 (1.4 to 19.2 kW) charger isn't enough of a range to honestly matter - anything below 40 kW is "slow" charging - it's the 100-270 kW range that is "fast" charging and harder on the battery

and while 1.4 kW might do it for you - I'd humbly argue most people use/expect their car to be drivable for 80-150 miles at least once every two weeks if not more

1.4 kW charging rate replenishes 120 miles (40 kWh of power) in about in 28 hours of charging - I believe most people want to charge their EV in less than 28 hours. In fact most people want their EV to charge as fast as possible so that it's never an issue. Also other EV's may have bigger batteries and have higher consumption requiring replenishment - and again fast is probably preferred by the vast majority of owners so that their vehicle is ready in the morning for that day's activities.

given that most people find a 25 min fast charging stop unacceptable vs. a 5-8 min gasoline refill tellling them 28 hours is "just fine" smacks of lack of concern for what we're up against.

 

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And don’t forget about the EVSE tax credit in the US.

30% of the cost for new devices and installation up to $1k.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8911.pdf

I claimed both my $1200 EVSE and $1800 electrical installation, including the sub panel and additional receptacle last year.
For the benefit of those considering new installations: this federal tax credit expired December 31, 2021.
 
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this trip for example - really isnt' feasible with L1 charging…

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/244-mile-round-trip-took-84-soc.11740/

244 miles at using 84% SOC is 70 kWh - I'd suggest most people would like that amount replenished in less than 2 days (50 hours at L1 charging rates)

based on my rankings 70 kWh will be dispatched in the following times
  • L1 charging - 120V w/15 amp breaker - 1.44 kW = 48.6 hours
  • sufficient - 30 amp breaker - 5.76 kW = 12 hours
  • acceptable - 40 amp breaker - 7.68 kW = 9 hours
  • good - 50 amp breaker - 9.6 kW = 7.2 hours
  • better - 60 amp breake - 11 kW = 6.3 hours
  • best - 100 amp breaker w/19.2 kW optional Taycan charger = 3.6 hours
  • 50 kW DC Fast charging = 1.4 hours
  • 150 kW DC Fast charging = 28 minutes
  • 270 kW DC Fast charging = 22 minutes + some for 84% based on porsche assertion of 22 min to 80% for a 270 kW DC fast charging session.
if the criteria is shorter charging times are better which I believe most if not the vast majority of people would agree faster is better - the best charging system _IS_ the faster charging system - which for my post which I authored it is - there is clearly a difference and advantage to your choices.

but yeah if you never want to drive your EV more than 30 miles a day L1 charging is just fine - I certainly purchased my Taycan to never drive it more than 30-40 miles a day - it's why I own all my porsche's.
 

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this trip for example - really isnt' feasible with L1 charging…

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/244-mile-round-trip-took-84-soc.11740/

244 miles at using 84% SOC is 70 kWh - I'd suggest most people would like that amount replenished in less than 2 days (50 hours at L1 charging rates)

based on my rankings 70 kWh will be dispatched in the following times
  • L1 charging - 120V w/15 amp breaker - 1.44 kW = 48.6 hours
  • sufficient - 30 amp breaker - 5.76 kW = 12 hours
  • acceptable - 40 amp breaker - 7.68 kW = 9 hours
  • good - 50 amp breaker - 9.6 kW = 7.2 hours
  • better - 60 amp breake - 11 kW = 6.3 hours
  • best - 100 amp breaker w/19.2 kW optional Taycan charger = 3.6 hours
  • 50 kW DC Fast charging = 1.4 hours
  • 150 kW DC Fast charging = 28 minutes
  • 270 kW DC Fast charging = 22 minutes + some for 84% based on porsche assertion of 22 min to 80% for a 270 kW DC fast charging session.
if the criteria is shorter charging times are better - which for my post which I authored it is - there is clearly a difference and advantage to your choices.

but yeah if you never want to drive your EV more than 30 miles a day L1 charging is just fine - I certainly purchased my Taycan to never drive it more than 30-40 miles a day - it's why I own all my porsche's.
To be clear i would never suggest L1 as an optimal solution. Giving that as an example on how even that is working out. I think the issue i am having with your math is, you say people want to take a longer trip every week or two, but then you are trying to replenish the entire energy loss immediately. That is unnecessary not what people do with their ICE (eg fill it up so they start every day with a full tank of gas). You have a 90kwh battery which gives you plenty of headroom. Anyways, i know people are different, mine is simple math, lifestyles may be different but there are bare minimums. 6 hours of sleep, taking a shower changing clothes that should give everyone 8-9 hours of charging time, everyday. Just do the simple math. Btw, my experience with EA charges has been a breeze so far. I just took my taycan over to a 150 mile roundtrip weekend daytrip. I did not have to, but just for the sake of trying stopped at an EA charger on the way, grabbed a coffee took the kids to the restroom, and that was enough to add 40% SOC!
 


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To be clear i would never suggest L1 as an optimal solution. Giving that as an example on how even that is working out. I think the issue i am having with your math is, you say people want to take a longer trip every week or two, but then you are trying to replenish the entire energy loss immediately. That is unnecessary not what people do with their ICE (eg fill it up so they start every day with a full tank of gas). You have a 90kwh battery which gives you plenty of headroom. Anyways, i know people are different, mine is simple math, lifestyles may be different but there are bare minimums. 6 hours of sleep, taking a shower changing clothes that should give everyone 8-9 hours of charging time, everyday. Just do the simple math. Btw, my experience with EA charges has been a breeze so far. I just took my taycan over to a 150 mile roundtrip weekend daytrip. I did not have to, but just for the sake of trying stopped at an EA charger on the way, grabbed a coffee took the kids to the restroom, and that was enough to add 40% SOC!
yeah that's a good point - the question for everyong deciding what to do - is what can my home charging system accomplish? and at what point will my driving needs exceed what can be reasonably accomplished by my home charging install - if you have a smaller system there will be times you have to resort to fast charging - if you have a "better" system there will be fewer times you must resort to fast charging - but these bigger systems also require greater upfront cost for the equipment and install…

your experience with EA is mostly opposite of mine 2 years in now - I still find EA to be a glorious sh*t show with very very low reliability and frustrating lack of uptime or dependable charging success - just last week I was almost stranded by EA in Half Moon bay, but fortunately for some reason 1 of the 4 chargers actually worked, but albet at reduced capacity stranding me for 40 min rather than 10 min…the next day someone on plugshare reported all 4 charger were offline and non-functional (but listed in the EA app as "avaiable" but physically unavailable once you were "onsite" - ridiculous - the app LIED about the status - and you wouldn't find out they are non-functional until you actually drove there) - and based on check ins it's been that way since July 2nd with no repair or concern from EA in sight

I personally recommend systems for people to be self sufficient and value people's time - one of the great advantages of EV's is the abilty to refuel at home overnight for a minimum amount of hassel - designing a system for home install that requires people to visit a fast charger which might be offline or inconveniently located is not what I personally recommend - but again to each their own…

I value discussion - and this thread has been a bit more contriveral that I expected - but I believe the core information in post #1 stands - these are the simplest set of choices for making a home charging decision (something many many people are confused about, and often mislead by dealership personal) - now not everyone will want to optimize for speed as I did in my rankings - but the "core" recommendations are the simplest set of choices I've seen presented and will let people make an informed decision…you don't have to install the "best" system in my rankings, but you can choose to installed _ONE_ of the choices from my rankings - and I'd argue to date there hasn't be this clear/simple of a list for the newbie EV owner on this forum.
 
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fast charging is also typically greater cost vs. home residential off-peak rates…but faster home charging also requires great upfront cost for the larger amp circuit and equipment…so that difference in cost is a "budget" to consider that pays for a lot of public/fast charging.

but in my case local EA chargers are $0.31/kWh (after my 3 years included charging runs out) vs. $0.08/kWh "off peak" rate - and that is the favoriable Porsche rate - normal customers are billed $0.43/kWh at my local EA stations…that's quite costly vs. home residential rates.

at 2.7 miles/kWh - that is $0.11 cost per-mile driven for EA charging vs. $0.02 cost per-mile driven to charge at home and I don't have to spend time driving to the EA site, charging, and then driving home again…now I agree if I can combine a fast charging stop with another errand I'm doing anyways that is kinda a win/win situation and honestly no big deal…

but if it's not free/included the cost profile for public charging (fast or slow) tends to be vastly more expensive that home off-peak residential rates…
 

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At the end of the day, people need to be able to figure out their own needs or whatever they end up with may not be sufficient or may not be optimal for themselves. There’s no one size fits all suggestion.

In general though, faster home charging is going to cover more use cases than slower (because it is always covers at a least the same).
 
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Count me in that 98%.

Prior to getting my Taycan in August, 2021, I spent a lot of time looking at home charging options using this site. The various post from @daveo4EV were most helpful. I decided on a ClipperCreek unit via a 50 amp circuit. Cost me about a $1,200 to get it setup due to the long run from my panel to where I wanted to put my EVSE. I knew that a higher amperage could be a benefit in the future but the upgrade cost just wasn't worth it to me.

After almost of year of using the Taycan I have concluded that I made exactly the right decision. Most of my driving is local and I drive until about 45% SOC and then recharge over that night so I am back up to 85% the next morning - charging at off-off-peak hours / rates. Most of the time it is on the charger every three days or so. It has also been on the charger every night a few times. And while the ClipperCreek is a dumb EVSE, the system in the Taycan has allowed me to schedule all of my charging at cheaper rates and thus far everything has been going just as it should.

I have NOT done any monetary analysis to see if my total investment of about $2,000 has been worth it compared to my previous ICE in terms of miles traveled. However at today's premium fuel prices I think I am probably doing pretty good.

I bought the Taycan because I wanted to experience first-hand a BEV that could handle close to my expectations of being a long time Porsche and sports car owner. Thus far I would have to say things are working out just as I had hoped. The car is a blast to drive and "refueling" it while I sleep is most enjoyable.

Overall, I am very happy with most aspects of the Taycan - at my age (78) I don't like the contortions involved in working past the B-pillar to get in the car - and I really enjoy and appreciate my charging infrastructure at my home.
 
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this trip for example - really isnt' feasible with L1 charging…

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/244-mile-round-trip-took-84-soc.11740/
Giving that as an example on how even that is working out. I think the issue i am having with your math is, you say people want to take a longer trip every week or two, but then you are trying to replenish the entire energy loss immediately.
Dave, I didn’t even notice that you used my recent trip as an example. I have additional information that wasn’t relevant in that post, but is here.

That morning, I had set the car to be charged to 85% from the profile and then to 100% with a timer at 10am when we were supposed to leave.

Well, I went out for a run in the morning and on my way back, around 8am, my wife called me to tell me one of her cats had a UTI and she had to take it to the vet.

So, now she was leaving with the car and it wasn't fully charged. And it's Sunday so a lot of places are closed and she had drive further than normal to a different vet, further depleting our precious battery.

When she finally got back at 10:15am, the car did not have enough charge for our trip. But...she still had to get ready, so I plugged it in and hoped for her to be slow (I did like my odds on that one...).

The car finished charging to 100% 10 min before she was ready and we left. But it would NOT have if the charge rate had been slower.

Moral of the story is...we can sit and calculate exactly what we think we need all day long, but things happen.

We forgot to plug in.
Power goes out for a while.
EVSE or car faults during charging.
A cat gets a UTI and your planned time to charge is used to take it to the vet.

All that's to say...to those that dismiss it, I'll keep my faster charging. Thanks.
 
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Dave, I didn’t even notice that you used my recent trip as an example. I have additional information that wasn’t relevant in that post, but is here.

That morning, I had set the car to be charged to 85% from the profile and then to 100% with a timer at 10am when we were supposed to leave.

Well, I went out for a run in the morning and on my way back, around 8am, my wife called me to tell me one of her cats had a UTI and she had to take it to the vet.

So, now she was leaving with the car and it wasn't fully charged. And it's Sunday so a lot of places are closed and she had drive further than normal to a different vet, further depleting our precious battery.

When she finally got back at 10:15am, the car did not have enough charge for our trip. But...she still had to get ready, so I plugged it in and hoped for her to be slow (I did like my odds on that one...).

The car finished charging to 100% 10 min before she was ready and we left. But it would NOT have if the charge rate had been slower.

Moral of the story is...we can sit and calculate exactly what we think we need all day long, but things happen.

We forgot to plug in.
Power goes out for a while.
EVSE or car faults during charging.
A cat gets a UTI and your planned time to charge is used to take it to the vet.

All that's to say...to those that dismiss it, I'll keep my faster charging. Thanks.
I agree 100% - rarely if ever does anyone not like faster charging - it simply gives you more options…I'm confused by people that handicap their EV ownership by insisting they don't need to charge any faster - it's something I'll never understand but that's my burden and my personal limitation - people should do what makes them happy.

it makes me happy to charge my EV's as fast as possible with a minimum of hassle…
 

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I agree 100% - rarely if ever does anyone not like faster charging - it simply gives you more options…I'm confused by people that handicap their EV ownership by insisting they don't need to charge any faster - it's something I'll never understand but that's my burden and my personal limitation - people should do what makes them happy.

it makes me happy to charge my EV's as fast as possible with a minimum of hassle…
I don't see it so much as me saying I don't need to charge faster, but that I'm under 25 miles from an EA DCFC. and even if I was headed in the complete opposite direction it would only be 75 miles to the nearest DCFC. I have convenient fast charging options such that I could get home with 0% charge, and be able to begin more or less any trip within two hours. The math in my mind just doesn't check out that I should pay extra to solve a scenario that I'm simply not worried about

In my mind, I either need to leave ASAP and DCFCs are the best way to do any charging I need, or I don't need to hit a specific arrival time, and so I don't really have a problem. That's really the core of it is that to me home charging is meant to cover your day to day stuff and handle planned long distance trips, and DCFC is meant for going far and fast, and will only become more convenient in the coming years.

If others feel that it buys them peace of mind, I won't say you're wrong to do so. For others reading this, I would simply point out that they should evaluate the cost/benefit of using a DCFC when needed vs purchasing a 100A EVSE.
 

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There is quite an obsession among some owners about charging speed. I’ve been driving plug-ins and EVs past 1.5 years. We do 30-40 miles a day and we only have a Level 1 charger, a mere 1.2kw worked out almost perfectly for us so for, believe it or not. Now would I prefer a 16 amp Level two set up, probably yes. Would i ever need anything more? Maybe once in a bluemoon a 32 amp level 2 setup would have a use case. Would I ever ever need anything faster? If i lose my job and left with only my Taycan and decide to become an uber driver i could regret not having that 60 amp setup, and it could cost me that 6am airport ride job after i come home with a depleted battery with all day driving the day before. Anyone can spend as much as they wish on chargers and wires and breakers if they get a pleasure from it. My advice if you don’t have an obsession, don’t spend the money before you observe your daily routine for a while. You will be surprised. (P.S. everything else being equal slower charging is also better for battery)
I don't know sh*# about electricity, don't want to, and I really respect/admire those on this forum who do, but you raise two very good points that some of our hard-core brethren have omitted: (1) It is all about use case, and (2) keeping your battery healthy. My Level 2 wall charger is an 11+ year old "Voltec" number that I had installed when I bought my first EV, a Chevy Volt. The Taycan is my third EV and I am still very satisfied with my slow-ass Chevy Volt charger. Like you I drive about 30-40 miles a day and I almost always have a "full tank" (80% charge) in the morning when I hop in the car -- unless of course I did excessive driving the day before. But like most folks on this forum, I am not an Uber/Instacart driver and can't imagine why I would ever need/want to drive 250+ miles per day. Additionally, my plan is to leave this slow-ass, battery-friendly charger on the wall when my wife finally takes delivery of her EV SUV; I'll charge at night and plug her in for a few battery-friendly kW's during the day. Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect that our batteries will be in better shape a few years down the road than those who crank up their amps/battery temps every time they top off the tank.
 

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Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect that our batteries will be in better shape a few years down the road than those who crank up their amps/battery temps every time they top off the tank.
Trickle charging at L1 or low L2 amperage, even full tilt 19.2kW/22kW L2 won’t have much impact on battery health compared to frequent L3 charging at 150kW+.

I’d wager that a lifetime of 1kW trickle charging would not have measurable difference on battery health compared to the equivalent for 19.2kW charging if best practices are observed (max 80-85% charge, to 100% only for imminent departure, to 50% for periods of disuse etc).
 

 
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