FlyingPoint

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Unless it is implemented like here in Europe. We can not use PnC as such, but need the Tesla app to start and pay for the charge. No complications at all and much faster than the set up time on Ionity.

Interesting to see now how all the ones that did not see the value of the 150 kW option are reacting now?
Good decision for me!
I did not spec the higher 150kW charger on my MY21 and saved $400, as that vehicle lease ended prior to Tesla opening up it SC's.
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whitex

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Good decision for me!
I did not spec the higher 150kW charger on my MY21 and saved $400, as that vehicle lease ended prior to Tesla opening up it SC's.
Technically you didn't save $400. You only saved the depreciation amount (whatever percentage of the car price you paid for the lease). So if the initial price was $400, and your residual was 55% (using simple numbers), you only saved $180 + interest on that $180.
 

FlyingPoint

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Technically you didn't save $400. You only saved the depreciation amount (whatever percentage of the car price you paid for the lease). So if the initial price was $400, and your residual was 55% (using simple numbers), you only saved $180 + interest on that $180.
You are absolutely right, I stand corrected.
 

trycan

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I'm still thinking there is a 50% chance only 2025+ Porsche EVs will get TSC access. Heck, I think there is a 15% chance it will only be the Macan EV for now.

I was a little surprised Tesla didn't just sell a $999 adapter which would have had authentication built into the adapter, and talk unauthenticated CCS to the car - any CCS car could use it.
If the launch follows the same pattern as the Ford TSC rollout, the vehicle needs a certificate update that tells it to trust the TSC during the Plug-n-Charge handshake. Guessing no Taycans have those certificates loaded yet. Perhaps 2025s could get them via OTA(?), but earlier years could also have a path to update certificates via a service visit since it's just software.

No TSC to CCS adapter has been able to negotiate authentication (i.e. "smart" adapter), or at least I'm not aware of any. Instead, its a straight pass-through device that only contains sensors for cutting the connection when temps get too hot. This is actually a good thing, because generic adapters are already available, and any of them will likely work for the Taycan/Macan once the other pieces are in place.

I have my Ford-provided TSC to CCS adapter, and I'm expecting to use it on my 2025 Taycan when the announcement has been made and updates completed. I can test and report back when that time comes.
 

whitex

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If the launch follows the same pattern as the Ford TSC rollout, the vehicle needs a certificate update that tells it to trust the TSC during the Plug-n-Charge handshake. Guessing no Taycans have those certificates loaded yet. Perhaps 2025s could get them via OTA(?), but earlier years could also have a path to update certificates via a service visit since it's just software.

No TSC to CCS adapter has been able to negotiate authentication (i.e. "smart" adapter), or at least I'm not aware of any. Instead, its a straight pass-through device that only contains sensors for cutting the connection when temps get too hot. This is actually a good thing, because generic adapters are already available, and any of them will likely work for the Taycan/Macan once the other pieces are in place.

I have my Ford-provided TSC to CCS adapter, and I'm expecting to use it on my 2025 Taycan when the announcement has been made and updates completed. I can test and report back when that time comes.
Are you making some assumptions, or do you have data that confirms them?
  1. That Tesla uses pure ISO15118 PnC protocol, with the only difference from EA being certificate and/or chain of trust provisioning. If so, why does Rivian only support Tesla PnC?
  2. That J1 onboard chargers have firmware and/or full certs or root certs updatable by service. Notice that Porsche was unable to update whatever was needed to enable PnC to 2020 Taycans without swapping out the onboard charger. They had originally planned to have PnC from the get-go, but rumor had it that the certificate provisioning was not ready, which would imply they couldn’t provision it post production. Often secure devices are designed in such a way that root certificates are nor in-field updatable (for security reasons)
As for the active adapter, I know Tesla never built one (well, they did one for ChaDeMo to Tesla, long ago), I was just saying it might have made Tesla’s giving access to OEM’s an easier path, at a cost of more expensive adapter.
 


whitex

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Even my wife has not had any problems with Magic Docks. (Enough said!)
So you've never heard your wife say "why does my phone not have signal or internet?", or "the damned thing logged me out, what's my password?" ;)
 

Jonathan S.

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So you've never heard your wife say "why does my phone not have signal or internet?", or "the damned thing logged me out, what's my password?" ;)
With the Tesla app for Magic Docks, never.
EA and its equally miserable competition…
… after a few rounds of that, she insisted upon taking our A6ar on a roundtrip from Western Mass to Philadelphia that would require two charging stops.
I pleaded with her to give Magic Docks a try.
Sure enough, no more ICE roadtrip requests.
 


Jonathan S.

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Maybe eight times?
And no problems.
Hit the i4 charging curve every time.
I’ve also never had any problems with Magic Docks. And each time I’ve hit the Taycan 130s max for 400v. Which I’ve never reached in a sustained manner at EA.
 

trycan

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Are you making some assumptions, or do you have data that confirms them?
  1. That Tesla uses pure ISO15118 PnC protocol, with the only difference from EA being certificate and/or chain of trust provisioning. If so, why does Rivian only support Tesla PnC?
  2. That J1 onboard chargers have firmware and/or full certs or root certs updatable by service. Notice that Porsche was unable to update whatever was needed to enable PnC to 2020 Taycans without swapping out the onboard charger. They had originally planned to have PnC from the get-go, but rumor had it that the certificate provisioning was not ready, which would imply they couldn’t provision it post production. Often secure devices are designed in such a way that root certificates are nor in-field updatable (for security reasons)
I don't have the data/knowledge to prove anything. It was more of an informed guess based on watching the Ford rollout to TSC. Sorry to imply otherwise.

Totally possible that Porsche did not design the firmware to have update-able certificates (either intentionally or from oversight). If that was the case, I would have hoped the quote from the VW exec would have hinted about a limited rollout based on model / year. Since he did not, I am taking it optimistically that they will have every EV under their umbrella eligible eventually.

It's also possible that PnC rolls out to supported models in June, and that article quoted end-2025 being the timeline for ALL CCS cars to become eligible. That could mean BYO adapter and Tesla app TSC activation instead of whatever updates PnC requires. (exactly like Magic Dock can do today)
 

whitex

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Maybe eight times?
And no problems.
Hit the i4 charging curve every time.
I’ve also never had any problems with Magic Docks. And each time I’ve hit the Taycan 130s max for 400v. Which I’ve never reached in a sustained manner at EA.
Tesla app works better that EA, no doubt. I'm just saying Tesla plug-and-charge offers even simpler, less error prone operation. I'm going assume your wife is literate (can read with understanding), has some common sense, has a relatively recent phone with valid internet service (not disconnected because she hasn't paid the bill, or an old phone with old modem which sometimes craps out, or a hacked phone because it's years after its last update), is mostly coherent, therefore really cannot be used as the yard stick for smoothness of the operation for the general public. Charging needs to be as simple or simpler than filling up gasoline, and Tesla plug-and-charge accomplishes this.
 

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You are absolutely right, I stand corrected.
Interestingly, when I was speccing a build at our local London centre the salesman told me that the residuals are pretty much the same and therefore the monthly payments are higher as you are financing 100% of the cost of the options. So I guess his point was that it’s not 55% of what you paid but a flat standard rate for the model you choose. If he was right (and he seemed both certain and a bit embarrassed) then basically all options are 100% lost cost. The only difference and therefore how you can recoup some of the option cost is that in theory they will offer you a better trade in price for a Taycan that is better specced with options. I guess his point was that a Taycan with zero options will probably result in a trade in price of close to the same as the residual payment. A Taycan with (decent) options will get you a better trade in price and higher than the residual because they will be able to sell it more easily. According to this one salesman anyway…..
 

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Tesla app works better that EA, no doubt. I'm just saying Tesla plug-and-charge offers even simpler, less error prone operation. I'm going assume your wife is literate (can read with understanding), has some common sense, has a relatively recent phone with valid internet service (not disconnected because she hasn't paid the bill, or an old phone with old modem which sometimes craps out, or a hacked phone because it's years after its last update), is mostly coherent, therefore really cannot be used as the yard stick for smoothness of the operation for the general public. Charging needs to be as simple or simpler than filling up gasoline, and Tesla plug-and-charge accomplishes this.
There is also an economic / strategic model in play here that is aside from any technical requirements / limitations.
I believe the TSC w/ CCS adapter PnC process peels a few cents per kWh out of the charge rate and the manufacturer keeps that.
Whereas a magic dock or BYO activation via the Tesla app is all money going to Tesla. I am fine with that -- its their network.

VW group would prefer to onboard people as PnC so that it becomes your default payment method. If you learned the app first, you may never go back to PnC, and VW loses that recurring revenue from TSC charging.
 

FlyingPoint

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Interestingly, when I was speccing a build at our local London centre the salesman told me that the residuals are pretty much the same and therefore the monthly payments are higher as you are financing 100% of the cost of the options. So I guess his point was that it’s not 55% of what you paid but a flat standard rate for the model you choose. If he was right (and he seemed both certain and a bit embarrassed) then basically all options are 100% lost cost. The only difference and therefore how you can recoup some of the option cost is that in theory they will offer you a better trade in price for a Taycan that is better specced with options. I guess his point was that a Taycan with zero options will probably result in a trade in price of close to the same as the residual payment. A Taycan with (decent) options will get you a better trade in price and higher than the residual because they will be able to sell it more easily. According to this one salesman anyway…..
No, I think you are absolutely correct with your initial remark. I don't know how leasing (or the equivalent) in the UK works, but here as long as you don't exceed the MRM all OEM options are subject to the residual. After market items, such a PPF or Ceramic Coating are absorbed as a non residual item.
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