Why doesn’t the recuperation (re-Gen) mode automatically come on in range mode?

[MWarsaw]

Why doesn’t the recuperation (re-Gen) mode automatically come on in range mode? Doesn’t it add mileage when using it?

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[Gubbjaevel]

It recuperates energy used while braking.

But you're never "gaining", just "losing less".

(ie: Better to coast on, than to brake and throttle).

Illustration just for the hell of it...

 

[r553]

Porsche is opposed to recuperation because it could upset the balance of the car in corners. i use recuperation all the time.

 

[MWarsaw]

It recuperates energy used while braking.

But you're never "gaining", just "losing less".

(ie: Better to coast on, than to brake and throttle).

Illustration just for the hell of it...

Awesome. Thanks for the clear answer!

 

[NC_Taycan]

In the Taycan, when you brake, you are using regen, regardless of the regen setting. The setting you can configure (steering wheel button or drive menu) only controls whether or not you have some small amount of regen for lifting off the accelerator. In other words, stopping from 60 to 0 in a fixed distance would return the same energy to the battery regardless of the regen setting.

As for regen upsetting the balance in corners - perhaps, but the flip side is it makes easier the end of trail braking before tracking out after the apex. In my non-professional-driver opinion.

 

[feye]

Porsche is opposed to recuperation because it could upset the balance of the car in corners. i use recuperation all the time.

How so?

 

[daveo4EV]

Porsche is opposed to recuperation because it could upset the balance of the car in corners. i use recuperation all the time.

How so?

TL;DR;

Porsche is opposed to lift off throttle regen because it changes the dynamics of weight transfer control, which changes the dynamics of the driver's control of the vehicle.

details below:

any time any vehicle changes velocity "for _ANY_ reason" there is "weight transfer" - the balance of the car's dynamic loads shift between the 4 tires - the more/less force on any particular tire add/removes grip/traction from the tire - which can cause the vehicle dynamics to change

if this weight transfer happens while cornering it may cause the car to understeer or oversteer due to the changes in the amount of grip on each tire…

if the car is in actual decelerating (as opposed to simply coasting) there is more weight transfer - the plain and simple answer is: this amount of weight transfer may happen at an inopportune moment vs. being able to have the vehicle simply coast…coasting causes significantly less weight transfer vs. actual deceleration.

experienced drivers use weight transfer to cause desired outcomes…if the car is generating it's "own" weight transfer then the driver is not fully in control...Porsche being a performance brand wants to highlight the driver's role in controlling the vehicle - having regeneration "engage" with out explicit driver input _DOES_ cause heavy weight transfer which changes the vehicles dynamics and may not be what the driver wanted to accomplish…

leaving regeneration (and therefore weight transfer) tied to explicit driver inputs enhances the driver's control of the vehicle and minimizes the amount of influence external factors have the cars handling dynamics…

in my model 3 on a slippery road at higher speeds I could induce oversteer simply by lifting off the throttle (due to weight transfer from the heavy regeneration - not brake pedal application) - I would do this occasionally on purpose for the fun of it - but some people are bothered by one-peddle driving and feel you should only have "heavy deceleration" weight transfer when one is applying the brake pedal…

Porsche is _NOT_ opposed to recuperation/regeneration - the Taycan has one of (if not the) the most advanced and powerful recuperation systems available on a production automobile - Porsche is opposed to heavy recuperation as a result of only throttle inputs (or lack of input)…

even simply lifting off the throttle and coasting causes a slight shift towards the front tires having slight more grip than before - since the total amount of grip is a fix amount to go around, shifting grip to the front tires means you've robbed that amount of grip from the rear making it less able to keep the rear end from coming around - by converse even a slight amount of acceleration causes less grip to the front tires and more to the rear tires - robbing the front tires of grip might make the car understeer while turning…

it's a constant game of managing the grip on the four tires - and braking and acceleration control is one of the major tools at a driver's disposal to accomplish desired outcomes…the ability to pause or delay weight transfer is also a key control technic - in certain corners I might as a driver lift of the accelerator, but not immediately get on the brakes (corkscrew @ Laguna Seca is one of those corners) - I'm doing this to allow the car to settle before causing front wheel weight transfer with the brakes - if the car engaged heavy regeneration when I simply lifted off the accelerator it would also engage heavy weight transfer robbing me of my control to pause the weight transfer between the two driving inputs…

at time stamp 0:17 on the video above - I'm at the crest of the hill preceding the cork-screw - I'm neutral on my inputs (zero throttle and zero brakes) because I'm cresting the hill the car will get light as it tops the hill - lowering grip - if there was weight transfer to the front wheels at this point and even the slightest steering input the car could spin due to increased grip to the front and much much less grip to the rears - I apply brakes after the hill but prior to corner entry cause I'm not a pro and I'm chicken and want the car as settled as possible - lift off regen causing weight transfer at this moment is a very very bad thing - and in fact my model 3 is much less stable at this point on the track than my GT3 cup car in the video - I as a driver have less control with lift off regen…

if you watch this video about the rally flick - you'll note the narrator talks extensively about "waiting" during the process to let things happen -what you're waiting for is the weight transfer…and this requires that the car be "neutral" to inputs when the driver is doing nothing (not on the throttle or the brakes) - one pedal driving makes it much harder (but not impossible) for the driver to achieve "neutral" weight transfer between throttle application and brake application…



this video shows both understeer and oversteer in complete driver control -this driving techinic is mostly accomplished with purposeful driver inputs to the steering, the accelerator, and the brake - sometimes a driver wants to get off the accelerator but not immediately apply the brakes - this is particularly true for a good rally flick - having explicit control over the amount and force of the weight transfer -and being able to control "when" the weight transfer occurs is key

a rally flick is accomplished by the following inputs: turn, lift. brake - now there is a certain amount "pause" between each of those three steps - the amount of pause varies by conditions, vehicle, speed, desired outcome - if lifting off the throttle applies full regen you as a driver have lost a certain amount of control over when the maximum amount of braking/regen will be applied, meaning you've lost control of the weight transfer process…that is not a driver friendly design.

at time stamp 1:36 in the video the narrator notes "the trickiest part is being patient in the middle" what he means by this is waiting once you're off the throttle as to when to apply brake and then throttle - you are controlling the weight transfer and letting the weight transfer do it's work during the pause, changing the weight transfer during this process will upset the flick - i.e. for this type of driving you want maximum driver control and the car should only be doing things in direct result of driver input - the throttle should control power - and the brakes should control deceleration - having the throttle do double duty (both acceleration and deceleration) muddles the equation and makes the car less 'crisp'…

I've done a rally flick in my Model 3 performance - you can do it - but it requires much more throttle control than on non-one-pedal vehicles - one has to lift off the throttle, but not so much as to allow deceleration to engage - you can "coast" in a Tesla, but it requires you to find the "sweet spot" in the accelerator that is the point where you're not applying power, but also not allowing regen to engage, this sweet spot is constantly changing due to battery, speed, battery thermals, SOC, and other factors outside the driver's controls - you can coast in a Tesla - but never with the same throttle inputs over and over while on the track (having tracked the model 3 @ laguna - finding the "coast" spot on the accelerator while going into turn 2 for example in back to back laps is never the same for consecutive laps…therefore the weight transfer is never the same…therefore consistent control is harder to achieve.)

cars like my GT3, Subaru and the Taycan are easier because each of the driver's input really only accomplish one goal - and it's easier in my opinion when heavy regeneration is not part of the throttle control equation…and most importantly the control input are consistent from lap to lap to lap - in my experience this is not true with One Pedal driving in both my Bolt and my Tesla - the amount of throttle I need for coasting is constantly changing from lap to lap - which is not good fo consistent lap times or predictable car behavior.

for daily street driving it makes no difference and Porsche is wrong about one pedal driving - it should be on by default for Range, Normal, and off for Sports and Sports Plus…

Porsche also more than any other brand has in particular a lot of experience with the dyanamics of weight transfer in production street automobiles. The early 911's were/are wonderful (world class) driver's cars and gained rightly so a world class reputation for how they handled, but they were also known as having a "quirk" - due to all the weight being the back of the early 911's they had a reputation for being quite a handful, in that you could cause a 911 to oversteer or spin by suddenly simply lifting off the accelerator (no brakes), which cause weight transfer to the front tires and induced a engineering "moment" into the rear of the vehicle, where it had a lot of weight to throw around (think weight tied to the end of a string), and it would throw that weight around causing the 911 to spin/oversteer/wreck - this could easily be induced in early 911's by a sudden lift of the throttle with out even applying the brakes - porsche worked for years to "dial" this behavior out of the 911 making it more docile and easy to drive - the 911 dynamics of lift-off oversteer were augmented if the driver was also applying brakes at the same time (increasing the weight transfer) - done correctly the 911 is a beautiful vehicle that rewards the skilled driver, done wrong or accidentally the 911 is a telephone pole hugger and potential disaster - having lift-off regeneration is a blast from the past for 911's and a behavior that porsche worked hard to tame over the years, even though professional and experienced drivers find it most rewarding, the vast majority of drivers on the roads are ill equipped to handle a vehicle with those dyanamics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-off_oversteer - regeneration could be viewed as making a bad situation worse by adding additional energy into an already bad situation Given porsche long history with this topic it might provide some insight into their particular aversion to one pedal driving - because it's essentially lift-off weight transfer which in the wrong hands can be a very very bad outcome.

On April 10, 2010, Consumer Reports magazine rated the 2010 Lexus GX 460 SUV a "Don’t Buy: Safety Risk," as their panel of test engineers determined the vehicle was subject to excessive lift-off oversteer during a standardized evaluation for emergency handling. The test simulates scenarios such as transiting a highway exit ramp while traveling with excessive speed.[2] On April 19, Toyota recalled the GX 460 and the Toyota Land Cruiser Prado for a software update to the electronic stability control to correct the issue.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-off_oversteer#cite_note-3

 

[daveo4EV]

https://www.motorauthority.com/news...rd-for-longest-drift-with-an-electric-vehicle

throttle control is _THE KEY_ input to holding a drift - I know I've learned this from years of ice driving school w/Porsche - adding regeneration to the throttle control system I can envision it makes controlling a drift and holding a drift much much harder…

you can not overstate the importance of minute and precise throttle control when one is holding a drift in a vehicle, too much or too little and you lose the drift (the difference between too much and too little is very very small) - adding "regeneration braking" into this mix can only be a bad thing…

it's a driver control thing.

 

[Dee]

it's a driver control thing.

Well, why didn't you say so?
Lol.

 

[jetbox]

Simple, Porsche have proved during testing that coasting is more efficient than the regen setting, hence range mode is set up this way. Enjoy the silent coasting!

 

[svp6]

Not sure that Porsche was upset with the performance with regen on - in my 4S regen comes up automatically when I engage sport or sport plus, but not in normal or range. Perhaps I am missing something....

After driving various Tesla over the years I hated the lack of regen - but Porsche's implementation is growing on me. Coasting in the Taycan is much more than what you get from an ICE vehicle, would be the equivalent of putting the car in neutral.

 

[Dee]

Not sure that Porsche was upset with the performance with regen on - in my 4S regen comes up automatically when I engage sport or sport plus, but not in normal or range. Perhaps I am missing something....

Exactly.
With regen on, you can apply a little throttle to eliminate the regen completely, that's driver control right there.
It's just a choice if you want the regen in your throttle or your brake pedal.
Merely to please customers from other brands with one-pedal driving imho.
That's all.

 

[wmras]

https://www.motorauthority.com/news...rd-for-longest-drift-with-an-electric-vehicle

throttle control is _THE KEY_ input to holding a drift - I know I've learned this from years of ice driving school w/Porsche - adding regeneration to the throttle control system I can envision it makes controlling a drift and holding a drift much much harder…

you can not overstate the importance of minute and precise throttle control when one is holding a drift in a vehicle, too much or too little and you lose the drift (the difference between too much and too little is very very small) - adding "regeneration braking" into this mix can only be a bad thing…

it's a driver control thing.

Are you suggesting the REAL Sport+ be allocated to the Individual mode with Regen turned off? Makes sense from your description if you track the Taycan.

 

[Deleted member 1697]

braking regenerates

regen or not is only a matter of driving feeling, a kind of soft motor brake
In range mode or normal mode, taycan understeers (on ice). good idea not to interfere. in sport plus mode, taycan oversteers (on wet..). good idea to mimic a motor break

 

[Deleted member 1697]

Are you suggesting the REAL Sport+ be allocated to the Individual mode with Regen turned off? Makes sense from your description if you track the Taycan.

excuse me ... Breaking is

https://www.motorauthority.com/news...rd-for-longest-drift-with-an-electric-vehicle

throttle control is _THE KEY_ input to holding a drift - I know I've learned this from years of ice driving school w/Porsche - adding regeneration to the throttle control system I can envision it makes controlling a drift and holding a drift much much harder…

you can not overstate the importance of minute and precise throttle control when one is holding a drift in a vehicle, too much or too little and you lose the drift (the difference between too much and too little is very very small) - adding "regeneration braking" into this mix can only be a bad thing…

it's a driver control thing.

excuse me... braking is the key ! regeneration hidden in the brake is the only critic I can do to this car... I feel it like brakes are sticking (I mean there is some glue on the brake or what ?) "strange feeling on brakes" (I know i am going to take it in the face) any ideas to turn it off a while ? (even if it was the best idea to hide it in the brakes : to regen only when braking)

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