Taycan real world Range

AlphaG

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The Audi e-tron and Jaguar I-Pace are using the latest pouch/prismatic cells. They have 95 kWh and 90 kWh batteries respectively. The e-tron has an EPA range of 204 miles. The iPace range is 234 miles. Both source their cells from LG Chem, as does Porsche. Is LG Chem reserving some super duper cells just for Porsche and withholding them from stablemate Audi? I doubt it.

Battery cell chemistry and battery capacity are not the sole determinants of range. Motor efficiency, inverter efficiency, curb weight and aerodynamics play a very big role. Hopefully Porsche will be better than Audi and Jaguar in all of these metrics and show superior range. But to expect them to best Tesla with their first BEV effort is not in the cards IMO.

Incidently, while the pouch/prismatic form factor may be newer than cylindrical, the energy density of Tesla's NCA chemistry is superior to the NMC chemistry used by the others. The downside is that it requires a much more sophisticated Battery Management System, including cooling, to mitigate the risks of the more volatile NCA chemistry. So it is easier for an OEM to build battery packs with NMC pouch cells but they give up some energy density.
There are tradeoffs with using cylindrical cells. You can not compare the range of SUVs and smaller sedans like the M3 and draw conclusions based on the range differences. That’s like saying oh, my Range Rover gets worse MPG than my Lotus, so the Lotus must have newer technology under the hood!

The technology is applied to the specific purpose. I don’t know why Porsche chose pouch cells over prismatic or cylindrical, but that does not mean they are years behind Tesla. That is primarily what I’m trying to convey. We know too very little at this point about the Taycan’s battery system to draw conclusions based on cell type or inappropriate range comparisons.

You may very well be correct in the end, but I am going to wait to see what the car is capable of before coming to any conclusions.
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dennis

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There are tradeoffs with using cylindrical cells. You can not compare the range of SUVs and smaller sedans like the M3 and draw conclusions based on the range differences. That’s like saying oh, my Range Rover gets worse MPG than my Lotus, so the Lotus must have newer technology under the hood!
OK, if you prefer we can compare the EPA range of the 5 passenger Audi e-tron SUV and 5 passenger Jaguar I-Pace crossover with the larger 7 passenger Tesla Model X:

e-tron 95 kWh - 204 miles
I-Pace 90 kWh - 234 miles
Model X SR 85 kWh - 250 miles
Model X LR 100 kWh - 325 miles

Note that the range of the 100 kWh Model X improved from 295 miles to 325 miles recently when one of the motors was upgraded to the motor developed for the Model 3. Which is exactly my point. Porsche is going to deliver a great first BEV vehicle. I'm expecting and hoping it is better than the first offerings from Audi and Jaguar. But Porsche is a novice at BEV's, and we can't expect them to excel on all the metrics by which BEV's are measured against a company that has been solely focused on BEV's for 16 years.
 

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Wow this has become inflamed. It’s not the efficiency of the cells or the cooling of them that destroys the efficiency of the ipace and the etron. It’s the massive frontal area of both these cars. Here the Porsche is more like Tesla and will therefore hopefully be more efficient. Than it’s EU sisters. I have always described a BEV as an ICE with a minuscule tank. So the efficiencies really come from the shape more than other variables. You can heat and cool and optimize chem and coiling of motors all you want but if you do not have a slippery design then you will. It get the range numbers.

Here, at least on first glance the Taycan seems to be close or on par with TESLA. A lot of people do not like the TESLA design because they are so soap bari...... well this is what gives them most of the efficiency in the real world of driving on the road IMHO
 

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the largest model 3 battery is 75kW, and the taycan 96kW. Math is not a Tesla fan boy.
So your point is that Tesla can go further on a given battery capacity than Porsche? Without knowing the range details on Porsche, that may be true. Is this why you are saying Tesla is so much further along EV tech-wise than Porsche?

There are many things that go into the cars range.
Well you may consider it nonsense, but let's look at the facts. Tesla is on their 3rd or 4th generation depending on how you count in the following BEV drivetrain components:
- battery cells, modules, and cooling
- electric motors
- inverters
Each succeeding generation has shown more efficiency.

In contrast, Porsche is producing its first BEV. Both the 918 road car and 919 race car are hybrids. Yes they use batteries but the application and requirements are quite different from a road-going BEV. It's not a coincidence that with all of the announced and delivered "Tesla killers" from other manufacturers, no BEV has yet equaled the 265 miles of EPA range of the 2012 Tesla Model S 85. There is a learning curve with every new technology, and it takes time and iterative engineering to drive down that learning curve.

I believe the Taycan will be a great car. My concern as a deposit holder is the value for money equation. The interior and cargo space of the Taycan will be about the same as the Tesla Model 3, not the Model S. Straight line performance at 3.2 seconds is the same as the Model 3 Performance. Taycan range is very likely to be less than the 310 miles (EPA) of the Model 3. I know the Taycan will offer better vehicle dynamics and a more luxurious interior. It will also offer some exclusivity compared to the seeming ubiquity of Model 3. But is that worth a $40K-$80K price premium over the $55K Model 3 Performance? The Taycan will have to be really, really good to justify that IMO.
"Tesla killer" is a phrase trumped up by the media in order to get website hits. Porsche (and the German automobile industry) don't view things that way. I don't recall Porsche ever using the term "Tesla killer".

As I mentioned, many things go into a car's range. Porsche has a fantastic racing history and tend to over engineer many aspects of their vehicles to allow them to perform in a grueling racing environment. This is shown by the level of testing the Taycan has undergone. This approach to engineering is something Compare this to Tesla. I can think of at least one case recently where they had to bump down the range of the Model S via a software upgrade in order to improve battery longevity. You can contrast this with Audi's range on the e-tron. As someone else mentioned here, the fact that the e-tron is much more conventional looking SUV with it's higher drag coefficient probably comes into play. Also, the Audi e-tron is only using 88% of the battery capacity. This conservative approach was done to preserve battery health and longevity. An Audi spokesperson said it well, "We took a different approach than our competitors that balances range with longevity and repeatability”.

Personally, as an engineer I'm always in favor of the conservative approach to solving a problem, but I realize others are fine with more risk. IMO, we are at the very start of the switch from ICE to EV technology for personal transportation so there's much learning to be done.
 

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Personally, as an engineer I'm always in favor of the conservative approach to solving a problem, but I realize others are fine with more risk. IMO, we are at the very start of the switch from ICE to EV technology for personal transportation so there's much learning to be done.
I don't think any one disagrees with you. Not sure TESLA is so risky and the reduction of range on the S where did you hear that...? They simply have been around a little longer in the BEV game and that helps them for the near future. that's all. They are working hard as is Porsche to keep any advantages they have in an increasingly difficult market.

So kudos to them all!!!
 


MPawelek

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I frequent the Tesla site for information and all the bickering and rude comments. Last month there was a large stir up with those who own older Model S cars. Many reported that over night after a update they lost 20% of their battery capacity. Some conspiracy fans were speculating that the reduction was done on purpose to entice owners of older Model S’s to upgrade and buy a newer unit. Many unhappy original owners....
 

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I have had no such problem...……… So sounds like a lot of conspiracy mongering...… :)
 

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I have had no such problem...……… So sounds like a lot of conspiracy mongering...… :)

On my 3rd Tesla (loves them all) and have never had more than a 5% overall degradation of range in the 3 and 2 years I owned my Model S85 and Model S P90D. There are many, many haters on the Tesla site spewing garbage to get a reaction. I own stock in many companies and I find that TSLA has so many people wanting the company to fail, it amazes me. An American company employing Americans in the US should be applauded, yet, there are so many wanting to see their demise. Not sure why. Well, yes I do, big oil and ICE car companies know that Tesla is disrupting multiple markets and taking market share and sales/profits away from them. Tesla is a huge growth story!
 


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Model 3 Performance owner here, former 981 2.7L PDK owner. I only get about 240 miles of range on my “310 mile” battery. If you use the air conditioning, you immediately lose >20% of your range. I put proper 235 width front and 265 width rear staggered tires in Michelin Pilot Cup 2. Even at 45 PSI cold, I lose >10% range doing this.

There are very frugal Model 3 LR owners who use the 18” aero wheels and drive super slow and don’t use the AC or heated seats, and they get like 240 wH/mi. I get like 320 wH/mi.

At highway speeds 75-80 MPH, the battery also gets murdered. It simply can’t overcome the air resistance. For every 2.25 - 2.5 miles you drive, you burn 1% of the battery.

I expect the Taycan will be quite similar given it’s super wide tires and performance orientation. I do think Tesla is ahead because it pulls dozens of crazy tricks to get back 3% range here, 2% there, 1% on something else. It’s all a bunch of clever hacks that make EV viable. A performance EV (or large SUV EV) is somewhat of a conflicted product. But hey, it’s better than ICE.
 

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I will be very very disappointed if the Tesla range is below 250 miles in real-world driving. This is not only significantly worse than the Tesla, but I'd say they have not been straightforward in their marketing if this is true. I think we've all been told from the beginning "...300+ miles range and 80% charge in 15 minutes. "...you can have a cup of coffee..." was what one of the Porsche executives said.

If they can't meet either of these numbers, it is definitely misleading advertising.
 

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I will be very very disappointed if the Tesla range is below 250 miles in real-world driving. This is not only significantly worse than the Tesla, but I'd say they have not been straightforward in their marketing if this is true. I think we've all been told from the beginning "...300+ miles range and 80% charge in 15 minutes. "...you can have a cup of coffee..." was what one of the Porsche executives said.

If they can't meet either of these numbers, it is definitely misleading advertising.

Just saw this on the Tesla site and is clearly made by a Tesla biased person but does show what Tesla has done in their short time as a Car/EV manufacturer vs. the ICE car companies now working on EV’s, specifically Porsche as they are now coming out with the Taycan and a true Performance EV. Give a listen, it is short but does a decent comparison:

 

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The comparison in the above video is baseless since no official data has been released about the Taycan. Every number that is being thrown around is just speculation. Even the claim that multiple launches that Johnny Smith did, has been replicated by Tesla is a lie. Since what the Tesla did was 0-60 launch while Taycan did 0-125mph, 30 consecutive times. So until Porsche releases official data on the 4th of September, no comparison can be done.
 

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Just saw this on the Tesla site and is clearly made by a Tesla biased person but does show what Tesla has done in their short time as a Car/EV manufacturer vs. the ICE car companies now working on EV’s, specifically Porsche as they are now coming out with the Taycan and a true Performance EV. Give a listen, it is short but does a decent comparison:

Wow that video and the comments.. what a load of deliberate bullshit.. deliberately changing the narrative to suit the purpose.. and while acting slick as if it wasent blatantly clear what he was trying to do with his annoying ass voice.
 

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Just saw this on the Tesla site and is clearly made by a Tesla biased person but does show what Tesla has done in their short time as a Car/EV manufacturer vs. the ICE car companies now working on EV’s, specifically Porsche as they are now coming out with the Taycan and a true Performance EV. Give a listen, it is short but does a decent comparison:

His irritating voice and he can’t even pronounce Porsche correctly. Totally bullshit!
 

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from the release photos of the Taycan interior …

the display @ 286 km @ 75% battery - yields a calculation of 381 km or 236.742 miles @ 100 % - which is disappointment for Taycan's range…vs Model S or model 3 - that's barely more range than the Model 3 SR, and a lot less range than the Model 3 LR and the Model S at 350 miles range…

90 kWh battery @ 236 miles = 381 wh/mile or 2.62 miles/kWh - that's about equal to my Model X efficiency - actually my Model X gets like 361 wh/mile - hmmmmm this is disappointing and establishes a trend for the German EV's - so far none of them come close to Tesla on efficiency (iPace, eTron, and now the Taycan)…and yet this forum is full of people saying Tesla has nothing on the established automakers…

I'm hoping for a rendering error or just place holder graphics…but if it's actually 236 miles range (which the display indicates) that's going to be very disappointing and make me consider not purchasing one…
It is really a little bit silly to make predictions of range based on a photo. And I mean really silly. Cant you guys wait????? The range showing on that screen will be HIGHLY dependent on the type of driving that was done on THAT vehicle prior to the photo shoot during testing. If you drive a Porsche like a Porsche, I expect the range to drop to below 100 miles, and if you drive it like a Prius, then range will probably be around 300 for the 90kwh. What does Tesla range go to when you run a race track or accelerate 0-60 ten or twenty times or run the AC without driving for hours????? BTW Charlie, iPace is British, not German...actually Indian as its Tata Motors.....lol.

BTW, my plan is to replace my current Porsche with a Taycan as my wife's car and weekend performance car expecting to drive it 5000miles per year, and replace an aging Acura MDX with the Tesla Y expecting to drive it 18,000 miles per year when it comes out as my everyday car. When I bought my current Porsche (my 5th one), as for most Porsche owners, gas mileage was not factor in the decision making process just as range will not be here. It was performance first, looks second, and image third....Same will be for the Taycan. The range will only determine which car I use for the out of town trips, which is rare as my out of town trips are usually vacations abroad. With the current cars, I always took the MDX on out of town trips, except when taking trips with curvy mountain roads.

i REALLY like the Tesla, its just an amazing product that has the HIGHEST customer satisfaction rate of ANY brand (Porsche is #2) at JD Power and look forward the the really modern Tesla Y, but I mean the Porsche is a PORSCHE, and expect the Taycan to be as good as the 911 or Panamera.
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