Tesla Model S crushes Taycan’s Nürburgring time

Discussion in 'Porsche Taycan Versus...' started by Moo, Sep 17, 2019.

  1. Moo

    Moo Member

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    “But what the new drive can do he has already shown on some very fast laps. Our observer reports a hand-stopped lap time of 7:23 minutes – as I said: hand-stopped with corresponding inaccuracies. But that would be about 20 seconds faster than that Porsche Taycan. The weather conditions on Monday (16.9.) were rather cool with 18 degrees and heavy cloud cover.”

    https://electrek.co/2019/09/17/tesla-plaid-model-s-crushes-porsche-taycan-nurburgring-time/
     
  2. Ron R

    Ron R Well-Known Member

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    If this isn't a production car like the Taycan, are they trying to compete with the VW ID.R, which I think holds the record for fastest EV around the Nordschleife? While I occasionally read eletrek.co for entertainment since it's one of many biased websites catering to the Tesla fanboys, I thought "Electrek's take" at the end of the article was spot-on:

    If the time is accurate, it’s impressive modifications or not, but I still don’t understand the strategy.

    Again, if it’s really just about beating the Taycan, which I doubt is the case, it won’t work because people will claim that it’s non-production car versus a production car.

    Maybe it’s just to showcase the performance of the new Plaid powertrain, but that would be a bad move since it’s still a year away and it would affect Tesla’s sales of Model S and Model X performance vehicles.

    It leads me to think that it’s maybe as simple as Tesla needing to test its new powertrain and knowing that it would be seen or would leak, they made the announcement.
     
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  3. PanameraFrank

    PanameraFrank Member

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    No, they're comparing (I wouldn't say competing) with the Taycan. I don't like Tesla but the hate is kind of silly. The "plaid" powertrain will likely be available relatively soon and likely blow the Taycan Turbo S away in terms of speed. If you're suggesting it had modifications that won't be on production cars, so did the Taycan. It's not like the Taycan was checked & independently verified. There's video of the run but we already know the car *was* modified and not a production Taycan, we just don't know how heavy the modifications were.

    Can we just give Tesla props on being the clear leader in EV technology? I don't like their cars. I won't buy one of their cars. I'll probably buy a Taycan if the 4S reveal looks good. But man, if even near accurate that Nurburgring time is super impressive.
     
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  4. Ron R

    Ron R Well-Known Member

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    So evidently you have some inside info regarding the "plaid" powertrain since it will blow the Taycan Turbo S away? More unsubstantiated fanboy BS. Just like the Tesla being the "clear leader in EV technology". If you really believe that, why would you consider Porsche and not just buy something from Tesla? While the Taycan might be Porsche's first fully-electric car, they have plenty of experience with EV technology in the 919, the 918, the 911 GT3R hybrid, their production hybrids, as well as their relationship with Rimac.

    Also, what modifications were done to the Taycan for it's record run? I think Porsche is claiming it is the same as a production car. I have no reason to doubt Porsche.

    And, FWIW, I don't hate Tesla. I certainly don't agree with how Musk has been running Tesla, but unfortunately as a small shareholder I have no say since the company's board seems to be fine with anything he does. I think this whole publicity stunt of trying to come up with a prototype to beat Taycan is purely an ego trip on Musk's part.
     
  5. dennis

    dennis Active Member

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    #5 dennis, Sep 18, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
    The one consistent knock on the performance of Tesla's is that they can't do repeated full power runs or multiple laps around the track. Porsche used this as a major differentiator for the Taycan vs. Tesla Model S with 3 tests (or ego stunts if you prefer): Repeated 0-100-0 runs, the 'Ring lap time and 0-90-0 on the deck of the aircraft carrier Hornet. Did you really expect Tesla to not respond to this?

    The 3 motor powertrain is under development for Roadster 2. The obvious development mule for that is the Model S. So the prototype to counter Porsche's claims was already sitting around. It just needed a public unveiling, and Tesla chose to do it on two continents. As a Tesla shareholder I'm delighted that they responded to the challenge thrown down by Porsche. The stock is back up 20 points since the Taycan announcement.
     
  6. Vim Schrotnock

    Vim Schrotnock Well-Known Member

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    Wow. I remember when I bought one of the first bmw v10 M5's with 500 hp and the 'ring time was 8:13. For Tesla to run this kind of time in a 4 seater is quite an accomplishment, and shows how far ev technology has come. I can't see how anyone can't be impressed and encouraged by this benchmark, regardless of the details on the setup.
     
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  7. Ron R

    Ron R Well-Known Member

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    How many people are looking at a 4 door family car with the thought of hooning it around a track. Porsche are doing these tests to demonstrate what their new car is capable of because they feel it makes a difference to their clientle. And I can't imagine the fact that Tesla did a great time around the Nurburgring with a prototype will make a difference in TSLA. Working on improving car quality, improving service, stopping with the asinine tweets, making the company consistently profitable; that might bump the stock price... :)

    One other comment. HP and torque good for a lap around the Nurburgring is a requirement here, but so is handling. Take it from someone who's driven the Nordscheife (a little bit slower than 7'42"... :) This, IMO, is where there is a big differentiation between Porsche and Tesla. And also why we are comparing apples and oranges...
     
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    OP
    Moo

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  9. Friedrich

    Friedrich Well-Known Member

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    #9 Friedrich, Sep 18, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
    Competition is great! and fun to watch the developments....Competition will make both companies produce better vehicles and bring attention to how great electric cars are!

    Well.....Tesla ran a stripped down prototype, not an actual production vehicle. I speculate that the automatic performance shutdown due to battery overheating was also shut down as well, but HOPEFULLY, Tesla has been working on better battery temperature management system, steering and stability control so it can actually "compete" with the Taycan on real sports car performances as well as sustained performance. Its one thing for an experienced driver to run a car fast that has an inferior steering and stability control, and its another to have an inexperienced driver run the car fast.

    Also, Maybe Tesla will have a Model S that looks like a sports sedan and competes with a Porsche rather than a Mercedes sedan (and Honda Civic for the Model 3 looks wise).....I know, as a Tesla fan, that is wishful thinking....it is just that the Model S is now a 7 year old design! That is how often Mercedes and Porsche redesigned their bodies back in the 70s and 80s. I would be happy to give up the front trunk space on the Tesla for a sportier front end design! Wonder if it would be realistic to expect the Model S Plaid to be priced like the Taycan 4S.

    And as it turns out, the Porsche ran the Turbo on the Nordschleife, not the Turbo S. So Porsche may wait 2 years for Tesla to come out with its Model S Plaid before it runs its Turbo S

    From a business perspective, it was a BIG mistake from Tesla, as now anyone that was looking at the Tesla Model S 100P with Ludicras mode will now wait for the Plaid version! (Plaid?? must be on the record book as worst name ever conceived, or second worst after Touareg. Most people will think of a lumberjack, not exactly an image of sophistication that an expensive car should bring.) On the short run the premature running of the Plaid will hurt Tesla, but then it also will hurt Porsche, so maybe that is why they did it.
     
  10. Eisbärenhöhle

    Eisbärenhöhle Well-Known Member

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  11. EnjoyTheDrive

    EnjoyTheDrive Active Member

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    Either people that are complaining about Tesla on this forum bought Tesla in the upper $300 and are quite upset that they are upside down on their trade, or, they are just Porsche fanboys....or you do not let real facts get in the way of your opinions. To start, Porsche clearly showed a prototype Taycan that was tracking Nurburgring, and it was never an official time. Nurburgring stated so. Just look at close up images of the car! Clearly a prototype. So, Tesla is showing a Prototype as well. Why kill one company and not the other. As for putting out the best car for the job to have the best track time...really, Porsche is holding back on their best time? So, they spend $6 billion dollars on R&D and don’t want show their best. Also, from what I have read, the Turbo which is lighter and has everything the Turbo S has except for the addition HP boost in Short Runs, will do the time quicker around the track. And for those who state that Tesla is not the leader in EV Battery Technology or Charging, you are just not facing the clear facts that are out there. Really, a 93 KWh battery getting 250 miles of real range in a model 3 size car vs. a Tesla model 3 getting 300 miles of real range in a 75 KWh battery does not show you who has the EV better technology. Below is the Porsche Prototype.

    upload_2019-9-18_9-19-56.png

    upload_2019-9-18_9-20-58.png

    Here is a quote I saw on another forum that is appropriate:

    No, we published a time from our slow car, without telling anyone at the time that it was our slow car, because that's a totally normal thing to do! What, did we race our fast car, and what time did we get? Um.... no further questions." ;)

    And of course, the car they raced was neither Turbo nor Turbo S; it was a stripped pre-production prototype.

    Another quote: “Look at the pictures of the Taycan. It's visibly, heavily modified. And the "record" was set weeks before production started, with a vehicle produced some unknown time before that (a Taycan was first spotted there in May, at least half a year before production start, so if it is the same car, it was over half a year pre-production)”

    I will end with this, from Car & Driver as they wrote that Porsche might be holding back...they gave 2 scenarios...I am going with the second which is much more convincing, which is:

    "Our second theory posits that the Taycan Turbo S is no quicker than the Turbo around the track so demanding that it’s known as the Green Hell. While the Turbo S makes 750 horsepower to the Turbo’s 670 horsepower, that difference is only available for 2.5 seconds at a time. To manage heat in the powertrain, both versions of the Taycan reduce output to 616 horses after that interval. We don’t know how often the Turbo S powertrain controller would send the additional output to the Taycan’s motors during a lap of the ‘Ring. It’s also possible that the record-setting Turbo, which was fitted with all the optional performance-enhancing goodies that come standard on the Turbo S, weighs less than the more powerful Taycan."

    So... “That the "Turbo S" is simply slower on the Nürburgring is the Occam's Razor explanation as well: there's very few scenarios under which Porsche would sandbag the more expensive, more premium variant. But Porsche needed the Turbo S "boost mode" to be able to claim 2.6 seconds straight line acceleration.”

    “Conventional wisdom in the automotive industry is that Tesla's performance is easy to beat, just like trade wars are easy to win”. — liked this quote as well

    Have a great day!!
     
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  12. 285kph

    285kph Member

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    It would be easier to give Tesla props if its fanboys would cut down on hyperbole/distortions when singing Tesla's praises. The "Model S" on the Ring has no performance relevant components in common with the actual Model S on sale at this time (e.g., different powertrain, battery, brakes, wheels, tires, suspension geometry, aero, weight). Some of this is likely to become part of the production configuration in a year or so, some of it isn't (unless one thinks there's a big market for slammed 5000lb+ limousines on semi slicks with a service life measured in hours). The Taycan modifications (roll cage, race seats, removed passenger seat, summer tires) are standard issue for these timed runs, but there has been no suggestion of anything beyond that (powertrain, battery, tires, brakes, aero). Equating the two is pretty misleading.

    The Plaid powertrain looks to really be something, but the crowd on the usual EV fora is insufferable.
     
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  13. Ron R

    Ron R Well-Known Member

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    Well said
     
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  14. 285kph

    285kph Member

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    #14 285kph, Sep 18, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
    Utter BS. One is a pre-production model with production aero, brakes, wheels, ride height (all of which your picture clearly shows!) that can be ordered now, the other plainly has no performance-relevant components available from Tesla at this time.
     
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  15. Skystorm

    Skystorm Well-Known Member

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    How did Tesla drive the complete lap? Didn´t they do a BtG lap?
     

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