Can you also get Apple maps on driver display and HUD with a J1 Taycan?

[tigerbalm]

I don't see this improving any time soon…it's not a core competency for Porsche.

The problem for Porsche (or VW or anybody else) is that Tesla have been showing the way in this area for some time. They saw what Apple did to Blackberry and yet didn't raise their game.

At the risk of generalisations there is an additional cultural dimension to this saga: Germany.

"Made in Germany" when it comes to software is the opposite of when it comes to mechanical engineering. Its no Silicon Valley. Heck, its no New York, London or Dublin when it comes to fast moving field of software engineering. I've never met a SAP user interface I enjoyed.

Maybe it comes from the suppliers – but generally the software that drives PDCC, drivetrain, wipers, suspension and brakes is really good. Software that interacts with the mechanical engineering is pretty solid at Porsche.

It's when it hits consumer facing experiences, internet connectivity, cloud service and apps, etc – that it all starts to come apart.

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[daveo4EV]

I'm guessing this is the physical "ASSIST" button on the new GT3 that pops up a dedicated modal dialog that allows you to tap on/off each feature – as opposed to having it buried deep in "settings" menus?

that and the "optmized" set of choices from what I'm told - but also the EU regulations specifically forbid these "disable" settings from:

• being saved across vehicle start/stop
• only being "one step" - it has to be "mulitple steps" to disable the assistance warnings

the "GT' team does more track driving than the "consumer" teams - they were encountering the assist warnings more frequently in their day to day usage - they were more highly motivated for a solution vs. the teams that spend all their time testing on public roads where avoiding traffic infractions is a major concern…

this also brings up another "fact" of software - you have to "dog food" it - i.e. if you're not using on daily basis and interacting with it and iterating it will never get better - I'm not sure how much Porsche "dog foods" their infotainment - I know for a fact a lot of the mules that get driven around are using previous generation software - because they are testing physical changes - and software is not viewed as something they are iterating on in the mule development cycle...this is a major problem and leads to software that lacks "polish" and usability.

 

[chun]

it's a complex organization problem - and the organization is not optimized for a common software platform - they are in fact incentivized to remain independent from one another to reduce logistical dependences and avoid project delays x-organization…

I find this point so funny.

Porsche needs 5 years from concept to product; meanwhile chinese manufacturers go from concept to product in 1 year.

How does Porsche not see this as an issue it is baffling.

The fact that they needed 4 years to do the bare minimum on the refresh taycan, while BYD launched 17 models in that time frame, all with superior battery technology, superior battery enclosure and superior software, also quite baffling

 

[daveo4EV]

I find this point so funny.

Porsche needs 5 years from concept to product; meanwhile chinese manufacturers go from concept to product in 1 year.

How does Porsche not see this as an issue it is baffling.

The fact that they needed 4 years to do the bare minimum on the refresh taycan, while BYD launched 17 models in that year, all with superior battery technology, superior battery enclosure and superior software, also quite baffling

what's that you say? we having a problem? I don't see it - have you seen this quarter's numbers? I'm not sure this "problem" you mention requires our attention given how things are going…but we appreciate your time in bringing this to out attention - myself and the managment team will keep our eye on it and reach our to you if/when we feel this is impacting sales. You should get back to work on your current project- that's what's best for you and the company so that we continue to excel and remain committed to our current plans!! You're on deck for that assistance enable/disable user experience demo next week - myself and the management team is looking forward to your team's presentation!!

https://investorrelations.porsche.com/en/q3-2024-report/

 

[chun]

what's that you say? we having a problem? I don't see it - have you seen this quarter's numbers? I'm not sure this "problem" you mention requires our attention given how things are going…but we appreciate your time in bringing this to out attention - myself and the managment team will keep our eye on it and reach out to you if/when we feel this is impacting sales.

https://investorrelations.porsche.com/en/q3-2024-report/

But it is impacting sales, starting from this year. Taycan facelift is not selling. Porsche is not selling in China anymore. Management won't be able to hide behind profit margins for much longer with how the market is going.

We may still see change in our life time, or maybe we may see the last day of Porsche.

 

[daveo4EV]

But it is impacting sales, starting from this year. Taycan facelift is not selling. Porsche is not selling in China anymore. Management won't be able to hide behind profit margins for much longer with how the market is going.

We may still see change in our life time, or maybe we may see the last day of Porsche.

Taycan's not selling cause it's overpriced by a large factor…IMHO $210k for a GTS trim level sports sedan EV is simply ridiculous…software is not the issue for lack of sales (Yet!)

But I agree with your overall vector - Porsche is in trouble - software is one of many issues/head-winds they are facing - and so far they are not rising to the challenge IMHO

time will tell how this goes - but I don't see Porsche mastering the new world as quickly as I believe is necessary to succeed…

we're coming up on a 60+ day "delay" in Porsche's ability to deliver my already manufactured and already shipped 2024 Macan Turbo EV - and they have no ETA as to when I can complete purchase and/or delivery…and I'm getting to the point where I can no longer wait and will have to consider alternatives…

they will lose us one by one until it becomes a problem…

no one is failure to purchase a Taycan because of the software (yet) - Porsche has priced outside the realm of reasonable even for their superior mechanical driving experience…I simply can't spend $200k+ on an EV that's equal/slower than a $50k Model 3 Performance

the difference in price between my Macan Turbo Ev and GTS Taycan is $85k delta…that's an entire Macan 4S EV - the Taycan isn't worth that to me - that's a problem for Porsche because I'm an easy target (sucker) - and if they can't convince me - well I believe that's a problem.

 

[tigerbalm]

Blackberry (I worked there during this period) saw a mobile phone as an embedded device with strong regulatory obligations with the mobile service providers wagging the dog.

Apple comes along and shrinks a Mac into a phone with a lower power ARM chip and MacOS X as the operating system. They bring with them 30+ years of software development tooling.

The original iPhone was made with 100% off-the-shelf components available to anyone on the market. It was the software that was the breakthrough.

And the rest is history.

No matter how much we here talk about "driving experiences" – a car is becoming a laptop on wheels. The driving experience is moving from body roll to the infotainment system.

Almost everyone of us – don't fully align with that view – at this time. We like the Taycan because of the mechanical driving experience. We are niche though – and a little dinosaur-y.

Porsche can't also rely on us to remain static in our views.

 

[chun]

No matter how much we here talk about "driving experiences" – a car is becoming a laptop on wheels. The driving experience is moving from body roll to the infotainment system.

It's not even about that; but other brands offer similar if not better driving dynamics, at 1/3 of the price, while also offering the software part.

No matter how much people moan about Xiaomi, they did deliver a better time than Porsche. And that can't be without good driving dynamics. And that is their first car.

BYD offers koenigsegg level of performace in their U9 car, at 200.000. And that also can't happen without good driving dynamics.

The days when Porsche could ask a premium of 100.000 because "porsche driving dynamics" are gone.

Well, next year will tell the full story for Porsche.

 

[whitex]

Does Lotus sell more cars than Porsche? Does Lucid sell more? Does Rivian? Does Polestar? All of these have better software.

Lucid and Rivian are still loving money, and aiming for much higher target volumes than Porsche. My point is the higher the volume, the higher the R&D budget for software, so you will get richer software. I haven't seen Lotus software, is it as feature rich and does it get updates as often as Teslas?

Lower budget doesn't have to mean crappy software quality, just less feature rich, less updates, etc. Rimac Nevera costs 30x what a Tesla Model S Plaid does, but does it have 30x better software? No. Its software is a lot more basic. I don't have any knowledge how robust or reliable it is, but I do know it's not as feature rich as the Teslas or NIO or Rivian software.

The fact that traditional automakers are still learning how to write software is another issue, but not entirely unrelated. Tesla used to hire really high end engineers, he paid them handsomely too. That enabled them to develop software quickly. Traditional automakers hire contractors or outsource to suppliers still operating on lowest cost model, and established processes (which are slow) to guarantee you can get to the finish line with average (or below average) engineers. Traditionally automotive design cycles have been very long. Today's EV upstarts are following more of a cell phone model, where software is obsolete in 2-4 years. Texas instruments used to make OMAP SoC's which used to be marketed towards cell phones. Their software organization was very process driven (in large part driven by their large customer Nokia). The process was slow but pretty much guaranteed on-time completion even if Dallas (TI Headquarters) were to be hit by an asteroid and the company needed to rehire the entire engineering team. Unfortunately that meant long design cycles, so by the time software was ready, the chipsets were no longer competitive (newer, faster, better chipsets were on the market). So TI switched its OMAP product to automotive, Nokia phones disappeared from the world stage.

So no, I'm not making excuses for Porsche, just stating what is happening. They are stuck in the old mind set, haven't quite realized the market has changed. They are improving, but only time will tell will it be fast enough, or will the go the way of Nokia phones.

 

[whitex]

The original iPhone was made with 100% off-the-shelf components available to anyone on the market. It was the software that was the breakthrough.

To be fair, the fist iPhone was not the best smartphone on the market (I remember comparing it to a Samsung i730 - Samsung was actually more feature rich, actually had more features, like copy/paste for example). iPhone however was driven by a visionary dictator, with great marketing skills, so they left everyone behind. App Store was a genius move. Apple wasn't the fist to come up with it, I was actually part of an effort at Microsoft to create an equivalent of an app store for Windows Mobile which was gaining market share at the time (about a year before first iPhone came maybe), until Balmer personally killed the idea hard, telling us that nobody will download software, because people prefer to go to Best Buy and pick up a physical box. To this day I wish I had printed that email from Balmer so I could frame it and hang it on my wall. I left Microsoft because of Ballmer and his moves like this.

 

[daveo4EV]

They are improving, but only time will tell will it be fast enough, or will the go the way of Nokia phones.

I don't think they have as much runway as anyone believes - I believe they could be in real trouble in less than 2 years, and in extreme crisis in 4 years…their only saving grace is the 911 - but rather than compete with china they are begging/pleading for the EU to roll back EV goals and let them make ICE motors again…while ultimately newer companies are iterating on EV's as fast as possible rather than spending bandwidth on restoring past glory…

one approach will win the other will fail - my bet is on the new guys

the old guys aren't willing to burn the boats in the harbor - but they've needed to do it for a while.

 

[Vercingetorix]

I remember reading all of this 40 years ago. The Supra and 300 Zx were going to wipe the floor with Porsche. Hasn’t happened yet.

 

[chun]

I remember reading all of this 40 years ago. The Supra and 300 Zx were going to wipe the floor with Porsche. Hasn’t happened yet.

This is irrelevant. Chinese EVs are already wiping the floor with Porsche EV, and doing it at 1/3 of the price. It's why Chinese people, the biggest automotive market in the world, are not buying Porsche anymore. And it is why the taycan sells are under expectations by a lot.

Let's try to not be like Porsche, and live in present day, with present day information

 

[Vercingetorix]

This is irrelevant. Chinese EVs are already wiping the floor with Porsche EV, and doing it at 1/3 of the price. It's why Chinese people, the biggest automotive market in the world, are not buying Porsche anymore. And it is why the taycan sells are under expectations by a lot.

Let's try to not be like Porsche, and live in present day, with present day information

Trust me, you are irrelevant.

 

[Vercingetorix]

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