Tesla Price Drop

[Avantgarde]

Let's be honest, not many people are driving a Model S to the limit to cook the brakes.

The reason people love EVs is the instant torque, drive-train refinement and its cheaper to own.
As seen in this video Model S Plaid with track pack is really capable on track:

I know a guy who owns some fun cars AMG GT63, Huracan EVO and Model S Plaid is his favorite car to drive daily.

He is just repeating what i just said. And my point was not that EVs can not be liked over a performance ICE. Of course there are many advantages to EV powertrain, instant torque being one. But you can enjoy instant torque on many EVs and benchmark power does not have to be “plaid”. But total package in a car matters for a real enthusiast. My point was Tesla over emphasized motor power to an absurd degree for shallow commercial reasons without bothering to design/spec the rest of the car properly. It’s like serving a premium steak with instant noodles as a side. As this guy points out, that car should have left the factory with those upgraded brakes and suspension. “See it does not handle bad with that package” but that is freaking $20K package man! Maybe next they will come up with a $10K “insulation package”, $15K “better materials pacakage” $10K “proper acceptable seats package” $2K “non-honda civic sounding front wiper package” and it will be a perfect performance+luxury car inclusive of that massive power. But then when you look at that price tag, it won’t look like a “steal” compared to that “underpowered” 4S. I am not saying model s is an inherently bad car. I am just saying it cut a lot of corners to make headlines on one aspect (power) and can not be a fair benchmark for power alone because of that reason. And consumers are not stupid. If it was such a “steal” why those drastic price cuts? Plaid was a steal at 130K. 3 rounds of price cuts since then…. I think now finally it is close to fair value..

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[yankeedoodle]

Ugh

please don’t throw stones. I am in this scenario right now. My Model S is on its way to 10yrs….just hit 300,000km after a 2k road trip in which I supercharged 5 times each way and had zero issues

I’ve been thinking that a GTS sport turismo is a perfect replacement car. BUT it is now $80k more expensive for a showroom floor “used” (300km) GTS than a brand new Plaid.

I know everyone here is P cars or die….but that’s a big price difference. Yes it’s a soulless boat with quality issues. But it is still a beast of a car, at a red light and how it pulls on the highway. I’m not a track guy. My car has been flawless for a decade, as it was built pre-dual motor when demand was low and Teslas were actually good quality….so I don’t know how bad these newer cars are. But like I said, road tripping in my S was super easy. My only issue has been the lousy door handles.

I really want the GTS….unfortunately money IS something to consider

I own both and I still paid $120k more than my model S, and still the Taycan GTS ST is worth every penny, and then some...

 

[whitex]

I admire Tesla for how they revolutionized Automotive industry. But they also screwed up average people's perception in a very particular way. Now people calling a Taycan 4S an "underpowered" car, OMG. This alternative reality exists today only because of Tesla's existential play. Tesla had to justify a high price tag for a car otherwise would not be worth in the eyes of the customers, because they had to cover the disproportionately high battery cost of an EV. So they found a clever way of doing that, simply put very powerful motors in their cars without going through any of other more costly aspects of creating a true performance car (chasis, suspension, steering, bakes etc etc)- in their minds this was a low cost & clever way of justifying a 6 figure price tag for the average consumer out there who is not familiar with what it takes to design & manufacture a fine performance car. Because for an average person the only reason Ferrari's are so expensive "must be because of their pretty impressive 0-60 times". That wrong perception was partly because other manufacturers did not exactly do what Tesla did in the ICE world. GM for example could easily throw a 500 hp old block V8 into a Chevy malibu or maybe even supercharge it to 650hp with stock steering brakes and suspension, give it a Ferrari like 0-60 time and sell it for $50K. And maybe people would then say "Ferrari really needs up their game as their cars are too slow in this new world". But that did not happen because of various reasons. But Tesla took the "shortcut" (and I don't blame them they had to, to survive) -- but then it truly distorted the mindsets out there. When I bought my RWD one friend told me "why did not you pay 20K more and buy a Plaid!? - and believe it or not Plaid had a 130K sticker at that time - thank god i did not. Somehow 0-60 times became the "main valuation point" for justifying a price tag for a car - as if that was the ONLY engineering problem the whole industry was trying to crack the whole time. "why would you pay 6 figures for a car that does not do 0-60 in sub 4 sec?" - well in fact you could come up with infinite number of similar arguments for a plaid "why in the heck you would pay 6 figures for a car that takes more wind and road noise than a Toyota Camry on the highway? and feels like a mid-class sedan in 90% of the driving experience". But no nothing else mattered, because to the average person the most costly or difficult part of making a car "must be" giving it a low 0-60 - Tesla smartly exploited that uneducated perception. Taycan 4S has WAY more power than needed in any enthusiastic driving scenario, more power would be just marginal/fun factor improvement, but people now feel it is "underpowered" simply because a Tesla Model S exists. A Tesla Model S on the other hand had critical deficiencies in dynamism, brakes, suspension, steering precision that needed to be addressed way before throwing more power into it. As a "performance vehicle" It was an "imbalanced" engineering product from beginning and Plaid made it even more imbalanced. But interestingly being used as a "benchmark" in criticizing other vehicles. I am not a Tesla hater by any means. It changed the world. But I am not a fan of their "shortcut" strategy setting a benchmark for fine performance vehicle engineering out there.

You are saying exactly what I was saying, Tesla did raise the bar. That said, the bar has been rising even before Tesla. Some of today's non-EV SUV's would make 80's or 90's Ferraris and Porsches seem slow. Tesla just juiced the bar going up faster, and today tons of cars are fast and not in the $100K car category. My Taycan Turbo CT cannot outrun a Mustang Mach-E from a red light (at least without the launch control, which is another conversation, why is Porsche locking away this much power under LC, but that's another discussion for another thread). For me by the way the 0-60 is less important than 30-70, or 60-90, and that was the category on which the 4S seemed lacking for me. Even with its 2 gear transmission, the highway acceleration was so noticeably slower than the old generation Tesla (mine was a 2015 P85DL), so not even Plaid. Once you get used to having something, like butter smooth acceleration, it's hard to give it up, especially for a car with a much higher price tag.

As to why people seem to value that 0-60 as one of the top specs, well, they've been trained by various marketing, such as Porsche. What what makes a Taycan Turbo S worth twice the Taycan 4 price? According to Porsche website it's 0-60. Even when you dig deeper and spec out the exact same performance options, Porsche still puts a heavy premium on that 0-60 spec. I remember specing out a 4S CT and same options Turbo S CT -PCDD, PTV, RAS, all the performance options included. 4S ~$150K, TS $210K, so $60K, or 40% more money. That's Porsche saying that 0-60 is worth that much on an otherwise same car.

So, back to my point, the bar has been raised, Porsche either has to de-emphasize 0-60 as a super premium feature (they'd have to redesign their lineup to differentiate their trims on some other marketing points) or raise Porsche products up to the new bar. Otherwise they risk loosing top trim cars, because if someone values power and acceleration, they'll go with another brand, and if they don't value it, they will just buy base Porsches.

 

[f1eng]

You are saying exactly what I was saying, Tesla did raise the bar. That said, the bar has been rising even before Tesla. Some of today's non-EV SUV's would make 80's or 90's Ferraris and Porsches seem slow. Tesla just juiced the bar going up faster, and today tons of cars are fast and not in the $100K car category. My Taycan Turbo CT cannot outrun a Mustang Mach-E from a red light (at least without the launch control, which is another conversation, why is Porsche locking away this much power under LC, but that's another discussion for another thread). For me by the way the 0-60 is less important than 30-70, or 60-90, and that was the category on which the 4S seemed lacking for me. Even with its 2 gear transmission, the highway acceleration was so noticeably slower than the old generation Tesla (mine was a 2015 P85DL), so not even Plaid. Once you get used to having something, like butter smooth acceleration, it's hard to give it up, especially for a car with a much higher price tag.

As to why people seem to value that 0-60 as one of the top specs, well, they've been trained by various marketing, such as Porsche. What what makes a Taycan Turbo S worth twice the Taycan 4 price? According to Porsche website it's 0-60. Even when you dig deeper and spec out the exact same performance options, Porsche still puts a heavy premium on that 0-60 spec. I remember specing out a 4S CT and same options Turbo S CT -PCDD, PTV, RAS, all the performance options included. 4S ~$150K, TS $210K, so $60K, or 40% more money. That's Porsche saying that 0-60 is worth that much on an otherwise same car.

So, back to my point, the bar has been raised, Porsche either has to de-emphasize 0-60 as a super premium feature (they'd have to redesign their lineup to differentiate their trims on some other marketing points) or raise Porsche products up to the new bar. Otherwise they risk loosing top trim cars, because if someone values power and acceleration, they'll go with another brand, and if they don't value it, they will just buy base Porsches.

What you write may well be true in the US where “linear athleticism” to quote one car designer, is a big deal.
It isn’t anywhere else really and here in the UK it isn’t acceleration Porsches or other sports cars are known for, with exceptions of recent absurdities like the Bugatti Veyron and a small number of others.

I do agree that most drivers won’t exploit their cars anywhere near the chassis and brakes limit whereas with stability control it takes zero skill to exploit the acceleration, my mother could do it.

I did feel that more acceleration than a CT4 was pointless for me but did get a CT4S because the power increment from 4 to 4S per £ was the best value step here in the UK.

I have probably only used full throttle for a few seconds since I bought it.

Actually the instant throttle response and wide power band are attractive on any car which rules out turbo IC engined cars for lag and any others for needing a multi ratio gearbox!

I do understand the popularity of high powered straight line specials in the USA (I didn’t before my first visit in 1970) because of the road network, it is why US cars are unique and hardly sell anywhere else in the world but I don’t think it matters for Porsche’s worldwide market so probably not a big concern for them.

 

[whitex]

What you write may well be true in the US where “linear athleticism” to quote one car designer, is a big deal.
It isn’t anywhere else really and here in the UK it isn’t acceleration Porsches or other sports cars are known for, with exceptions of recent absurdities like the Bugatti Veyron and a small number of others.

I do agree that most drivers won’t exploit their cars anywhere near the chassis and brakes limit whereas with stability control it takes zero skill to exploit the acceleration, my mother could do it.

I did feel that more acceleration than a CT4 was pointless for me but did get a CT4S because the power increment from 4 to 4S per £ was the best value step here in the UK.

I have probably only used full throttle for a few seconds since I bought it.

Actually the instant throttle response and wide power band are attractive on any car which rules out turbo IC engined cars for lag and any others for needing a multi ratio gearbox!

I do understand the popularity of high powered straight line specials in the USA (I didn’t before my first visit in 1970) because of the road network, it is why US cars are unique and hardly sell anywhere else in the world but I don’t think it matters for Porsche’s worldwide market so probably not a big concern for them.

Does anyone buy Taycan Turbo S in the UK then? Is it only people who track it regularly (though if you’re going to do that, wouldn’t a 911 be a better choice), or people who want the status symbol of the Turbo S badge?

 

[f1eng]

Does anyone buy Taycan Turbo S in the UK then? Is it only people who track it regularly (though if you’re going to so that, wouldn’t a 911 be a better choice), or people who want the status symbol of the Turbo S badge?

There will be some in London crawling around in slow traffic so 95% status symbol. Like most expensive “sports cars” sold in the UK. It has always made me laugh.

People who can easily afford it may well buy one for the options if they appeal to them - if you want composite brakes and carbon trim these are options on others, I believe I am not nerdy enough to memorise all the differences - perhaps depreciation is less due to options not holding their value?

Personally I considered all the models and the 4S most suited my requirements, with the active ARBs, torque vectoring, rear axle steering and 21” summer tyres it will have as good handling and grip as any, better than most, and more than enough power. I decided during the spec process that the turbo or turbo S would have been pointless for me and owning the 4S confirms it.

For a track car I personally prefer lightness to power so a 911 wouldn’t be my choice any more.

 

[whitex]

There will be some in London crawling around in slow traffic so 95% status symbol. Like most expensive “sports cars” sold in the UK. It has always made me laugh.

Lol, I was driving earlier today behind a Ferrari. Don't know which one and couldn't see the driver as it was well after dark, but was stuck behind him on a rural highway with 45mph speed limit, which the Ferrari barely hit when going downhill (achieving a stunning 0-40mph in maybe 25 seconds). I was making a comment to my wife, "why would someone buy this car? If they are driving it like that, the low seating position is probably killing them on the ingress/egress too". The only reason I could think of was to impress friends and family.

 

[WuffvonTrips]

Does anyone buy Taycan Turbo S in the UK then? Is it only people who track it regularly (though if you’re going to do that, wouldn’t a 911 be a better choice), or people who want the status symbol of the Turbo S badge?

Though I'm looking forward to shortly doing it again, I don't think that the Taycan Turbo and Turbo S are best on track- IIRC I was only getting around 10 miles on the Silverstone International CIrcuit before thermal management curtailed the power and I had to tootle back to the Porsche SEC to swap cars (only possible because I was using their vehicles). Incidentally, I didn't notice any difference in performance between the Turbo and Turbo S. Oh, and my instructor had me on a different line to all the other cars (2 seater Porsches)- deep in to the corners to maximise straight lines, but more than able to keep up overall due to the acceleration out of the corners.

On the point about status symbol- I get the impression that EVs aren't on the shortlist of the posers, who want a car to be literally as shouty as possible to draw attention as it crawls around town.

 

[whitex]

Though I'm looking forward to shortly doing it again, I don't think that the Taycan Turbo and Turbo S are best on track- IIRC I was only getting around 10 miles on the Silverstone International CIrcuit before thermal management curtailed the power and I had to tootle back to the Porsche SEC to swap cars (only possible because I was using their vehicles). Incidentally, I didn't notice any difference in performance between the Turbo and Turbo S. Oh, and my instructor had me on a different line to all the other cars (2 seater Porsches)- deep in to the corners to maximise straight lines, but more than able to keep up overall due to the acceleration out of the corners.

Taycan is heavy, so slow in and fast out of the corners. I'm no racing expert, but simply knowing it's a heavy car with great acceleration, that is what the line through turns should be optimized for. An extreme example of that is watching Model S Plaid though the Nürburgring.

On the point about status symbol- I get the impression that EVs aren't on the shortlist of the posers, who want a car to be literally as shouty as possible to draw attention as it crawls around town.

Then who buys TTS'es in the UK? What is it good for there? TTS money can get you a decent 911 for track use.

 

[PorscheCH]

An extreme example of that is watching Model S Plaid though the Nürburgring.

There s only so much you can do for excessive weight. It will eventually catch up with you. In fact, at the Ring, sedans with half HP or so vs Plaid , from a few years back, have better lap times.

Also, the Plaid at the Ring behaves better than the stock car with track pack - not too hard to speculate that for bragging rights, they did much more 'tweaking' to the stock car than disclosed (suspension? software? etc). You won't get that if you buy the track pack

Can you turn a fat EV-sedan with vague steering, mediocre suspensions and erratic TV into a fast car? Yes, but it's easier with a ICE sedan: Jaguar project 8 runs 7 secs faster than Plaid, in 2018 and with half the power...

 

[Zcd1]

Also, the Plaid at the Ring behaves better than the stock car with track pack - not too hard to speculate that for bragging rights, they did much more 'tweaking' to the stock car than disclosed (suspension? software? etc). You won't get that if you buy the track pack

The Track Mode update was an OTA change, so applies to all Model S, even the LR (non-Plaid).

The $20K Track Package includes brakes, wheels and tires, and includes installation by Tesla.

 

[WuffvonTrips]

Then who buys TTS'es in the UK? What is it good for there? TTS money can get you a decent 911 for track use.

I'd guess that it's people who want, and are prepared to pay for, the pinnacle of Taycan-ness (with its launch potential a clear step up from the Turbo). The Taycan was the darling EV of UK motoring journalism, small businesses got great tax benefits, and until recently there wasn't any premium competition with a prestige badge, so Taycan demand surged beyond the normal Porsche customer base- new shiny revivals will no doubt lure many away when their Taycan financing matures.

If I wanted a car for track days, I 'd look at something like a Caterham rather than any Porsche.

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