What is the future of the Taycan? -"The development of the planned new platform for electric vehicles in the 2030s will be rescheduled."

[Uknown]

Asserting that the Taycan is not competitive is a strange narrative. J1.2 is a top notch EV.

I like the J1.1 too

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[KLHubb]

Agreed, I love my 2020 Taycan 4S, and will only replace it with the 718E when/if it becomes available.
Unlike some, I have had no problems, save those of my own making.

 

[feye]

You may well be completely correct regarding the Chinese market but I think you completely missed my point, too.

If you want tech: fine, go with whatever shiny bling you fancy - Porsche is not a technology company. Just look at the market for 20, 30, 40 year old 911s which people want to own and drive - no keyless entry, no bluetooth, no touch-screens, ...

I beg to differ! Porsche was a high tech company at the time with engine, chassie, etc and it was all about engineering for performance and driving dynamics. What's next? Porsche has no answer, but the Chinese do!

 

[feye]

Porsche is all about 'Made In Germany'. Would be a huge risk to outsource it.

Compare it with BMW and VW. They have hugh research and development centers in China, too. Particularly BMW, they have equal centers one in Munich, one in China. Porsche? Nothing!

Especially they do not have a factory not only in China but nowhere else with an expectation of Cayenne that is assembled in Slovakia. As you said, you are German, I do not understand your China bias and sensitivity.
As a German local patriot you should be happy to keep workplaces in Germany.

I am pointing this out so clearly, because I do wish the German car industry survives. But currently they are running into the wrong direction. They cry about climate regulation and run down the ICE rabbit hole where there is nothing but economic death! The Chinese go full steam ahead with electrifying everything.

What sounds to you me being biased towards China is nothing more than me describing the reality exactly as I experience it in my day to day life both in China and Germany. If you only experience the western side, you cannot comprehend, how much has changed there. Particularly in the years of the pandemic, where the west for almost 3 years went into reverse and fell asleep, the huge Chinese internal market went without any outside distraction full steam ahead.

I am sure the factory do not sell the cars on higher price to its key market China than EU or NA or elsewhere. So I am afraid the extremely high prices you mentioned is due to of taxation.

You are very mistaken here! VW in China was the regular car, Audi the luxury car for the government people, Porsche for the rich business people. You cannot buy a base Prosche without Bose for instance. Porsche would not have dared to offer dumpster car in that market. Prosche brand in China has a very different standing than it has in Europe.

Anyway as a German guy, why didn't you buy your Taycan in Germany on nearly half price than you bought it in China?

Where are the models to pick from? I looked at the Macan here, but too small. Nothing else...

 

[feye]

...However when those cars move to the second hand market, nobody wants them. Many fear a HV battery repair or replacement costs in the long run. A private buyer is someone that perhaps does 10 years or longer with a vehicle and doesn’t want costly surprises. And nobody is taking that fear away...

The more older second hand EVs are on the market the more special shops will be available, which can repair batteries on the cheap with ever more secondhand batteries on the market. And if you are lucky, your battery lasts much longer than the car.

 

[feye]

Why isn’t anyone looking at the (obvious) long term?
The solution could be something like a battery-as-a-service warranty.

The Zeekr 001 with 140kWh battery, which I got in May 2023, came with life long warranty. With only one charging cycle per month, I cannot see any degradation.

And the really new CATL batteries basically don't degrade and never break. I don't see an issue here!

 

[feye]

Listen to this for just 2 minutes:

youtu.be/xnzm4OOma9Q?t=336

He describes exactly what I see in China on the road and in the showrooms.

In the German car brands showroom people only look at the ICEs, like the Merc S-Class, or the Prosche Cayenne, but that's it. The only sucessful model was the Taycan because it was early, but even the Taycan now is not selling.

The road is full of EVs, most new cars are EVs, but I haven't seen a single Porsche Macan EV. I hardly ever see an EQx or BMW EV. Sometimes I see a ID3 or ID4/5!

 

[Boss Hogg]

Interesting thread, views and discussions.

I think Porsche know what they are doing, to have grown revenue 86% and operating profit 143% over the last 10 years is no mean feat. In the face of competition from Chinese auto makers and slowing EV demand in mature markets I'm glad they are changing plan, I want the brand to survive another few decades so I can continue to own one.

I see cars similarly to watches, the $5 Casio is by most measures the best at telling the time but people still love and buy $5k Rolex's and $50k Patek Philippe's.

 

[logic]

The Zeekr 001 with 140kWh battery, which I got in May 2023, came with life long warranty. With only one charging cycle per month, I cannot see any degradation.

And the really new CATL batteries basically don't degrade and never break. I don't see an issue here!

Yeah, in the long run.
I’m not talking about the Chinese market when stating that manufacturers do too little to convince the private buyers. In the EU/US, ICE dominated markets, private buyers are resilient to change and very skeptical. I would say >90% don’t have any confidence buying an EV for the long term. The concept works fine as a company car (lease) for a couple of years, but problems arise at the end of the lease when they need to be sold (typically to private buyers). The private buyers also don’t get as much incentives like the company car buyers do… so it adds up to getting 2 adaptation rates within one market, creating a steeper depreciation as compared to ICE vehicles, which again adds fuel (pun intended) to the naysayers and slows down EV adaptation. Ultimately, I don’t believe you can keep selling new Taycan’s at 150K. That’s the reasoning behind Porsches backtracking.
I’m a bit frustrated by what no-one is doing. Unlike Zeekr in China. There’s not a single Western car maker promoting such a thing like a lifetime battery warranty. It feels like they’ve jumped on the EV bandwagon without envisioning what the future would look like and what the customers need. Do you know that cars are on average 12.3 years old in the European Union? On average! Opposite to the quickly adapting company cars is another parallel universe… And having batteries die within 4 years of ownership is extremely off-putting and detrimental to EV adaption. Manufacturers need to ensure battery issues will get resolved swiftly and affordably, and last longer than the 8 year timeframe offered.
I’m definitely smoking here, dreaming of what could be and is not. In reality, when a battery fails, it takes Porsche months to repair. It takes Nio 5 minutes to swap a battery. Connect the dots, solutions are in plain sight. Porsches communication smells like defeat and not a good thing to communicate, to me and all potential buyers. Instead, they should be saying things like, "we got you covered" and give confidence to persuade people.

 

[tigerbalm]

Porsche is all about 'Made In Germany'. Would be a huge risk to outsource it.

The Cayenne is assembled in Bratislava in Slovakia at a VW factory alongside the Audi Q7/Q8 and VW Touareg – which are all the same platform.

 

[Freeewilly]

The more older second hand EVs are on the market the more special shops will be available, which can repair batteries on the cheap with ever more secondhand batteries on the market. And if you are lucky, your battery lasts much longer than the car.

I used to believe about more shops and cheaper battery when there are more EVs available.
I stopped believe this comment after owning EVs for 10+ years. Living in one of the most dense EV city in SoCal, there are only a few mom and pop shop that can handle EV battery. The cost is slightly cheaper than manufacture service center, it's not worth the risk for the price difference. There is no quality 3rd party battery brand available. The replacement battery market is just not here. At this point, it's more like a dream than coming soon.

Cost to replace battery is a real concern when shopping for a used EV.

 

[Freeewilly]

Interesting thread, views and discussions.

I think Porsche know what they are doing, to have grown revenue 86% and operating profit 143% over the last 10 years is no mean feat. In the face of competition from Chinese auto makers and slowing EV demand in mature markets I'm glad they are changing plan, I want the brand to survive another few decades so I can continue to own one.

I see cars similarly to watches, the $5 Casio is by most measures the best at telling the time but people still love and buy $5k Rolex's and $50k Patek Philippe's.

I don't think Porsche will ever go away in our lifetime, but if they can't compete in the next generation of high-tech vehicles, their market share will shrink, and becomes more like a niche brand.

 

[chun]

I used to believe about more shops and cheaper battery when there are more EVs available.
I stopped believe this comment after owning EVs for 10+ years. Living in one of the most dense EV city in SoCal, there are only a few mom and pop shop that can handle EV battery. The cost is slightly cheaper than manufacture service center, it's not worth the risk for the price difference. There is no quality 3rd party battery brand available. The replacement battery market is just not here. At this point, it's more like a dream than coming soon.

Cost to replace battery is a real concern when shopping for a used EV.

That’s a western world problem.

In China, you can order a new battery for pretty much any EV on the market with pretty much any chemistry.

So with time, and investment, things will get better in western world also. It’s just that things are moving much slower than they are in China.

 

[tophamn]

I don't think Porsche will ever go away in our lifetime, but if they can't compete in the next generation of high-tech vehicles, their market share will shrink, and becomes more like a niche brand.

Porsche _is_ a niche brand - it's not Toyota or GM.

 

[Freeewilly]

Porsche _is_ a niche brand - it's not Toyota or GM.

I agree that Porsche is not a household brand and we don't want it to be one.
It's kind of yes and no. Porsche is a niche brand because of its high price, but a true niche brand limit the number of cars they make.
Porsche wants to make and sell as many cars as possible at high price and high margin, for Porsche to continue selling as many cars as they can, they need to keep improving on everything they're good at, and also keep up with technology.

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