EV's vs PHEV's - what makes sense in the next 10 years?

[Dee]

Probably, but the Toyota hybrid system is extremely elegant and clever (patented) system which has less to go wrong than even a normal IC engined car.

Hybrids are just destroying energy.
-When driving on petrol you're dragging a useless battery and electric motor.
-When you're driving electric you're dragging a useless petrol engine and gas.
A hybrid is more efficient than an ice cuz of adding a very efficient motor system but in reality it's just destroying energy instead of being a true EV.

Interesting with the EV with range extenders though. BMW was head of that with the i3!

Agree with f1eng about the range extender (REX)
The BEV was just brilliant though.
CFRP monocoque, CF compound roof, alu subframes, very light for an EV, excellent connect services (remote), drives great, handles great, scissor doors, tasteful interior, premium quality but it was expensive.
They still look modern although they're 12+ years old!
I had one for three years, would buy one again, for sure!

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[pjg03d]

PHEVs and EVs are a both bandaid on a larger problem - oil dependence coupled with fully individualized transport being preferred by a wide margin, with enormous lack of public transport worldwide but especially in most of the US.

EVs are an appropriate bandaid. PHEVs are like taping a piece of paper to an arterial wound.

 

[Vim Schrotnock]

public transportation in the US can certainly be improved, but we will NEVER have infrastructure like europe or japan simply due to our population density, or lack thereof. I don't agree that PHEV's are inefficient in terms of energy - just look at the numbers. Mercedes PHEV driven for two months, 3,000 miles, and two tanks of gas with all other charging done at home. Gas mileage is 25mpg, EV range on full charge ranges from 40 miles in extreme cold to 60 miles in heat.

You have a car that gives you throttle response (not the full power) and economy of an electric, but provides the range and flexibility of gas. If the reliability can be brought to equivalent, then what's the problem?

 

[pjg03d]

public transportation in the US can certainly be improved, but we will NEVER have infrastructure like europe or japan simply due to our population density, or lack thereof. I don't agree that PHEV's are inefficient in terms of energy - just look at the numbers. Mercedes PHEV driven for two months, 3,000 miles, and two tanks of gas with all other charging done at home. Gas mileage is 25mpg, EV range on full charge ranges from 40 miles in extreme cold to 60 miles in heat.

You have a car that gives you throttle response (not the full power) and economy of an electric, but provides the range and flexibility of gas. If the reliability can be brought to equivalent, then what's the problem?

Localized municipal-level public transport can happen pretty easily if it is supported politically - we already have versions of it in many cities. The oil and car manufacture lobby has done a great job suppressing support for public transport for many decades and the ghosts of that suppression linger, unfortunately.

PHEVs/hybrids are definitionally more efficient than gas-engine-only cars but they are still incredibly inefficient if energy-in, energy-out is considered. There is no way around it - burning gas is just incredibly inefficient. The most efficient ICEs may be 40% efficient in converting chemical energy to propulsion, vs the least efficient electric motors in the high-80%s. The physics can't be re-written, and the problem is that we continue to pump carbon (and secondary byproducts of combustion, as well as all the associated methane leakage and energy usage involved in extraction and refinement) into the atmosphere with hybrid cars.

We need to completely de-couple from fossil fuels as an energy source; hybrids can help bridge the gap but are not an ideal (or longterm) solution.

 

[Sar]

Because they’re still slow and not plentiful and DC charging isn’t really cheaper.

Your experience in Seattle isn’t the same as the rest of the country.

And when 1/3 of the US doesn’t own a home, charging on the road is their only option with an EV and that becomes even more important.

EVs are awesome if you can charge from home and almost never on the road.

If I drive south, there are exactly 5 DC chargers within 150 miles south of me that would be useful (I don’t count the 9 within 13 miles of home).

1 is 48 miles away……. And there is literally only 1. If it’s full? Tough luck.

No chance I’m going to rely on a SINGLE charger being available for a road trip.

And in that search area I’m looking at? Several million people live in that area.

I won't go as far as arguing your point is invalid for certain areas, but you can charge at non-EA stations, very notably Tesla charging stations. I just did a google search and saw dozens of unique charging stations in your pictured area.

 

[69Mach390]

I won't go as far as arguing your point is invalid for certain areas, but you can charge at non-EA stations, very notably Tesla charging stations. I just did a google search and saw dozens of unique charging stations in your pictured area.

Sure, but I need to buy an adapter, and it isn’t free (I still have a year left of free EA charging).

And if you need to travel on a holiday weekend? Good luck.

It just doesn’t work around here. We are a long way from having reliable DC capacity. I can’t imagine if you lived in an apartment and had to rely on that daily for a long work commute.

Not my use case, but yes, many people live in apartments and have long commutes.

Either way, it answers your question as to “why we are still having this debate in 2025.”

I’ll bet we will still have the same debate in 2030 and 2035. These are the same issues they debated about electric cars in 1925 (not a typo).

 

[Wivenhoe]

Before buying an EV I had 3 PHEV’s - 2 Merc’s and a Range Rover. I think it is totally down to your normal usage. As the majority of my driving was within electric range, when I sold the Range Rover it had an overall average of 85 mpg. Although it only had a 2L engine the 0 to 60 times was quicker than the V6 ICE.
When the engine cut in it was seamless and there was an option to stay on EV. It was lucrative in the UK at the time to have a PHEV as a company car as the total cost could be offset against corporation tax and the personal tax was negligible. That’s why the majority of EV’s in the UK are company owned cars.

 

[Sly_North]

PHEV have twice the complexity, but that's not the worse. Their battery is puny, and it'll be fully discharged and recharged every day. It'll have many more full cycles, meaning its lifetime will be much shorter than an EV's battery.

 

[Vim Schrotnock]

I wouldn't say 2x the complexity, but they do have more systems to worry about, and the reliability is not great at this point. PHEV batteries will have shorter lifespans than EV's because of the reasons above, but they should last the warrantee period (8 years), and if not they can be replaced for a fraction of of the EV cost.

The real problem with EV's from a mfg. standpoint is they can't make any money. Here's a quote from an article on Ford.

Ford has lost $13 billion on its EV business since 2023, with bigger losses expected in years to come. Last year Ford lost about $50,000 for each EV sold.

Yes, Ford is incompetent, etc., but this is a real problem for all manufacturers. The inflection point will be when battery costs come down by a factor. I think in the next 5+ years, we'll see a lot more PHEV's on the road.

 

[Zcd1]

I wouldn't say 2x the complexity

Actually, an ICE is 10-50x more complex than an electric motor...

 

[CrazyINP]

My personal experience and opinion. We have both, Taycan EV and PHEV X5 45e hybrid that we use for long family trips. When we go on long trips, I still have range anxiety and don't want to depend on EV charging in area I am not familiar with. Finding a gas station is much much easier. 99% of the time we charge at home and Hybrid is ran on battery pretty much 90% of the time when we don't travel. It has enough range to get me or the wife to work at least 2 roundtrips. It is the right fit for us but might not be for everyone. Since we have Solar and Hybrid isn't as efficient as full EV still, we get to use renewable energy to power it. Again there is no right or wrong , just what fits you best.

 

[69Mach390]

Actually, an ICE is 10-50x more complex than an electric motor...

Complex? Yes.

But who cares if it’s more reliable and easier/cheaper to fix?

I don’t care how many ingredients go in and how they bake the bread if the end result is a better bread.

I think it’s funny how whenever the topic of hybrids end up on a BEV forum, the FUD all of a sudden goes against gas powered engines.

As if we haven’t all had significant experience with ICE and like we don’t know that they’re generally reliable and pretty easy and cheap to repair.

There are other downsides, but bringing up reliability and repair costs vs EVs is a battle we won’t win.

That top picture? I could make an engine look like that and then put it back together in my garage with simple hand tools.

The bottom picture? That thing goes in the garbage if it breaks.

 

[Zcd1]

Complex? Yes.

But who cares if it’s more reliable and easier/cheaper to fix?

I don’t care how many ingredients go in and how they bake the bread if the end result is a better bread.

I think it’s funny how whenever the topic of hybrids end up on a BEV forum, the FUD all of a sudden goes against gas powered engines.

As if we haven’t all had significant experience with ICE and like we don’t know that they’re generally reliable and pretty easy and cheap to repair.

There are other downsides, but bringing up reliability and repair costs vs EVs is a battle we won’t win.

That top picture? I could make an engine look like that and then put it back together in my garage with simple hand tools.

The bottom picture? That thing goes in the garbage if it breaks.

You’re trolling, right? Because you can’t possibly be serious…

 

[69Mach390]

You’re trolling, right? Because you can’t possibly be serious…

Are you serious? Just look up any dependability study on EVs vs ICE. EVs are consistently at the bottom when it comes to reliability. And the cost to repair and replace a battery is well known.

EVs are getting better (both with battery costs coming down, some ability to repair individual cells, and reliability). But there’s still a gap.

Didn’t think I was doing anything but pointing out the obvious well known stuff. Gas engines may have a lot of parts, but they’re actually pretty simple machines and easy to work on and replace individual components.

There’s a reason why every corner has a car mechanic on it and a lot of people work on them at home as a hobby.

When stuff goes mostly electric? They become disposable.

It’s why there USED to be appliance repair shops on every corner and now you’d be lucky to find a single one anywhere in your town.

 

[pjg03d]

The real problem with EV's from a mfg. standpoint is they can't make any money. Here's a quote from an article on Ford.

Ford has lost $13 billion on its EV business since 2023, with bigger losses expected in years to come. Last year Ford lost about $50,000 for each EV sold.

Yes, Ford is incompetent, etc., but this is a real problem for all manufacturers. The inflection point will be when battery costs come down by a factor. I think in the next 5+ years, we'll see a lot more PHEV's on the road.

This seems more like a problem of viewing R&D and initial investment for production as a loss and not.... an investment. The production facilities didn't just evaporate.

I understand that if adoption rates don't keep up with internal predictions that it will take longer to recoup investment and turn a profit, but that seems more like a problem with both Ford's ability to sell EVs and the political will to re-shape the market with further incentives, education, infrastructure buildout, etc. In the US we offered half-hearted support of revolutionary technology through relatively modest investment in charging infrastructure coupled with... a tax credit, but only for new vehicles or hilariously-low-cost used vehicles, and that was about it; and then the Trump admin vaporized even those menial efforts a few years later.

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