New user questions about estimated range

[SWORDER]

2021 Taycan TTS

Loving this awesome car! Have some questions about how estimated range is calculated.

(1) Why is Sport Plus estimated range less than Normal mode? Sport Plus (+Individual tweaks) is my default driving mode. Estimated range goes up a few miles when switching to Normal. Why is that? I figured since Sport Plus has a lower profile, it would reduce drag a bit and might increase range a bit. Is the range algorithm making certain assumptions about driving style, etc.?

Now, I can see why Range mode would offer higher range estimate since it gimps the air conditioner and caps speed. But why would Normal be higher?

(2) Why are my estimated miles remaining so volatile? Made a trip from San Diego to Las Vegas a couple days back. It was my first long trip in the Taycan, or any EV for that matter. My strategy was to use Waze, which tells me the number of miles until I reach my destination charging station, in my case Barstow CA. I then continually compare that number against the number of miles remaining in the tank. I'm pretty comfortable when the "excess range", that is to say, range remaining minus miles to destination, is greater than 35 or so. That gives me a little cushion to search for other chargers if my desired chargers aren't operational.

Anyway, my excess range was about fifty miles at the beginning of the trip, drifted all the way down to twenty-five for a while, at some times got as low as ten. On the second leg of my trip it actually got negative (!) and then recovered. I'm trying to figure out what's going on here.

My excess miles seem to deplete rapidly when going up hill. I mean I guess that kind of makes sense, since the car has to use more kWh to go the same amount of distance. Does the range estimate just look at the current snapshot of usage (kWh/mile) and then, from the amount of kWhs remaining, determine remaining range? I figured since it has GPS connectivity it would know, "Ok, we're going up a hill now but we're almost at the top and we're going to be coasting down the other side soon so we'll take that into account."

Everything worked out but I was sweating it for a few minutes when it looked like I didn't have enough miles in the battery to make it to my next charge point.

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[XLR82XS]

Sport Plus is going to provide more "juice" since it is designed for more aggressive and powerful driving.

 

[Miwa]

Normal mode doesn't use 1st gear normally, so there's some benefit in that. Sport Plus is also purposefully warming up the battery.

Range will jump around a bit more early on as the car learns how you drive it. Much like any other car, the "Distance to empty" gauge is guessing based on a number of things, including how you drove in the near past. It's like every other car you've owned, except you are looking at the range a LOT more instead of the amount of fuel left in the tank.

 

[daveo4EV]

distance to empty or estimated range is based on recent past consumption/driving style - it is easily easily mislead and often wrong…

my 911 GT3 for example after a day of pounding around Laguna Seca thinks I can drive 70 miles on a full tank of gas - that’s not true - where as after tooling around town normally it’s closer to 300 miles for a full tank of gas - the range estimates for an EV are no different - they are estimated based on the past, but have no clue as to the future so their estimates are sometimes just sooo wrong it’s ridiculous

what is true is as follows:

• if you enter a destination into the PCM navigation system the battery % shown in the porsche nav is pretty accurate +/- 3% unless you drive really really outside the norms on the route
• EV’s are scary consistent - as you drive places - and more importantly drive to the same places you’ll find the consumption is about 99% the same for the same point a to point b drive
  • example: I used to own a house in San Jose and Aptos, CA - it would take 22% battery to drive from SJ to Aptos - over the years it _ALWAYS_ took 22% - almost no matter what I did
  • learn your % consumption for various routes you take and you’ll find it always about the same amount
• cold weather (less than 40F) cost 15-30% additional consumption. EV’s prefer warmer weather.
• range doesn’t matter for daily driving - unless you’re planning to drive more than 220 miles a day - so I know it’s hard - but stop caring - you’ll drive all day to where you need to go - and plug in when you get home - and car will be full again in the morning
  • range doesn’t matter for daily driving - repeat this - a lot.

enjoy - sports mode is more expensive than normal/range mode- that’s cause it burns more electrons for more power to the motors, heating the battery - and using the transmission less efficiently - but unless you’re driving more than 200 miles a day - again it doesn’t matter.

 

[daveo4EV]

mean I guess that kind of makes sense, since the car has to use more kWh to go the same amount of distance. Does the range estimate just look at the current snapshot of usage (kWh/mile) and then, from the amount of kWhs remaining, determine remaining range? I figured since it has GPS connectivity it would know, "Ok, we're going up a hill now but we're almost at the top and we're going to be coasting down the other side soon so we'll take that into account."

don’t use the range estimate - enter your destination into the Porsche nav - it takes, distance, elevation, and speed limits into consider for it’s estimate - if the nav says you can get there +/- 5% you can get there - ignore the estimate range on the dash it’s only basically true but can also be wildly optimistic.

also for planning trips start with A Better Route Planner (ABRP) it’s both an app and website - use either - and learn some EV app’s like plug-share for checking possible charging locations for when you’re not doing daily driving

road tripping an EV is different than a gas car but here is the thumbnail/summary

• start the day at 100% battery
• plan your first stop
  • typically 3 to 4 hours of driving into the day
• a fast charging stop at a reliable 150 kW (or more) charger will take 20-40 minutes for the Taycan
  • grab a bio break and eat a meal during this time and car will be ready before you are
• drive your next 3 to 4 hours to a hotel with near by fast charging or L2 EV charging - plugshare will help you find these
  • charge the car overnight at the hotel
• start out the next day - go back to the top of this list
• one 40 minute stop a day equally about 500-550 miles driven in single day
  • if you add one more fast charging stop (another 40 minutes) that’s close to 700 miles a day for 2 fast charging stops
  • if you need to drive more than 700 miles a day - well then
    • you’re a better man than I am - I don’t have that kinda of stamina
    • rent an ICE if 2 40 min stops a day are going to harsh your buzz

if you really really must know how much battery you’re going to use to get someplace - use the in-car navigation - it’s really really quite accurate

if it says you can get there +/- 5% - you can get there
more importantly - if it says you can _NOT_ get there - well then time to break out ABRP and start planning some charging stops
if it says you can get there @ 35% battery - well then you’ll need a charging stop plan for the round trip on your way back - again consult plug-share and ABRP for planning assistance.

 

[daveo4EV]

stop thinking in terms of miles you can drive - instead think in terms of “hours in the seat”

the Taycan is a solid 240-300 mile 100% charge vehicle depending on driving style and route choices - 260 is not a bad “middle ground” for common and easy range.

At an average speed of 60 mph - 260 miles is 4:20 min seat time with _NO_ stops before you need to stop and charge

some notes:

• average speeds greater than 60 mph is actually really really really difficult - try it some time on normal north american roads
• at a 350 kW charger your fast charging stop will be 40 minutes or less to nearly 100%
  • this is a fact I’ve done it!!!
  • once you’re in the mid 90’s %’wise the next few single digits really really don’t matter for range
• so you need to take a break every 4 hours for 40 minutes to “fill the car” at a fast charging stop
  • 8 am to noon
  • stop for 40 min
    • bio break
    • lunch
    • a quick walk to work out the muscle cramps from sitting for 4 hours
  • 1 pm to 5 pm
  • stop someplace over night
  • boom! you’ve driven 520 miles for one 40 min fast charging stop
  • that’s 9 hour of on the road seat time - frankly I know some peole can road trip for 14-16 hours straight - but honestly who really really does that?
    • and _IF_ that is your primary concern then an EV is not yet your thing
    • but honestly how often do you need to do this?
• driving 65 mph vs. 70 will add 7 min to your 260 mile “segment” - yeah just 7 min longer for same distance
  • but you will save enough battery to drive 280 miles rather than 260 miles before needing to stop to charge
  • speed is the range killer in an EV
  • aero-dynamic drag is the major consumer of power after 40 mph
    • it’s not linear - it’s V^2 - for each mph
    • you will amaze yourself at how far your taycan can drive on a full charger at 65 mph vs. 72 mph - the savings are extreme in terms of extra distance

personally for my situation and temperment - 4 hours of solid seat time - followed by a 30-40 min fast charging break is about all I can handle these days - and when I’ve done road trips it‘s a very very rare situation that I’m left waiting for the car to finish charging by the time I’m done with all the things I’m doing at a road side stop - normally I’m racing back to the car to unplug it to avoid idle fee’s - I actually find the vehicle is too fast at the charger if I relax just a little bit during the stop and take it easy

if you are dealing with charging speeds of less than 100 kW (50-75 kW) well then you’re stops are going to be a little longer and you will end up waiting for the car a little bit or a lot depending on the situation - but it’s still true that 1 stop a day equals about 520 miles driving which is about 8 hours of in-seat time for 1 fast charging stop if you start out the day full.

 

[SDSoccerdad]

distance to empty or estimated range is based on recent past consumption/driving style - it is easily easily mislead and often wrong…

my 911 GT3 for example after a day of pounding around Laguna Seca thinks I can drive 70 miles on a full tank of gas - that’s not true - where as after tooling around town normally it’s closer to 300 miles for a full tank of gas - the range estimates for an EV are no different - they are estimated based on the past, but have no clue as to the future so their estimates are sometimes just sooo wrong it’s ridiculous

what is true is as follows:

• if you enter a destination into the PCM navigation system the battery % shown in the porsche nav is pretty accurate +/- 3% unless you drive really really outside the norms on the route
• EV’s are scary consistent - as you drive places - and more importantly drive to the same places you’ll find the consumption is about 99% the same for the same point a to point b drive
  • example: I used to own a house in San Jose and Aptos, CA - it would take 22% battery to drive from SJ to Aptos - over the years it _ALWAYS_ took 22% - almost no matter what I did
  • learn your % consumption for various routes you take and you’ll find it always about the same amount
• cold weather (less than 40F) cost 15-30% additional consumption. EV’s prefer warmer weather.
• range doesn’t matter for daily driving - unless you’re planning to drive more than 220 miles a day - so I know it’s hard - but stop caring - you’ll drive all day to where you need to go - and plug in when you get home - and car will be full again in the morning
  • range doesn’t matter for daily driving - repeat this - a lot.

enjoy - sports mode is more expensive than normal/range mode- that’s cause it burns more electrons for more power to the motors, heating the battery - and using the transmission less efficiently - but unless you’re driving more than 200 miles a day - again it doesn’t matter.

don’t use the range estimate - enter your destination into the Porsche nav - it takes, distance, elevation, and speed limits into consider for it’s estimate - if the nav says you can get there +/- 5% you can get there - ignore the estimate range on the dash it’s only basically true but can also be wildly optimistic.

also for planning trips start with A Better Route Planner (ABRP) it’s both an app and website - use either - and learn some EV app’s like plug-share for checking possible charging locations for when you’re not doing daily driving

road tripping an EV is different than a gas car but here is the thumbnail/summary

• start the day at 100% battery
• plan your first stop
  • typically 3 to 4 hours of driving into the day
• a fast charging stop at a reliable 150 kW (or more) charger will take 20-40 minutes for the Taycan
  • grab a bio break and eat a meal during this time and car will be ready before you are
• drive your next 3 to 4 hours to a hotel with near by fast charging or L2 EV charging - plugshare will help you find these
  • charge the car overnight at the hotel
• start out the next day - go back to the top of this list
• one 40 minute stop a day equally about 500-550 miles driven in single day
  • if you add one more fast charging stop (another 40 minutes) that’s close to 700 miles a day for 2 fast charging stops
  • if you need to drive more than 700 miles a day - well then
    • you’re a better man than I am - I don’t have that kinda of stamina
    • rent an ICE if 2 40 min stops a day are going to harsh your buzz

if you really really must know how much battery you’re going to use to get someplace - use the in-car navigation - it’s really really quite accurate

if it says you can get there +/- 5% - you can get there
more importantly - if it says you can _NOT_ get there - well then time to break out ABRP and start planning some charging stops
if it says you can get there @ 35% battery - well then you’ll need a charging stop plan for the round trip on your way back - again consult plug-share and ABRP for planning assistance.

David - do you recommend at the first and each subsequent charging stop to 100% or 85%? Thanks

 

[daveo4EV]

David - do you recommend at the first and each subsequent charging stop to 100% or 85%? Thanks

I recommend enough charging to get to the next stop plus some buffer

charging speed really really tapers off after about 85% on the Taycan (and other EV’s) - and if you think in terms of minutes spent at the charger vs. driving distance you are gaining it gets really really bad in terms of trade off’s of your time vs. distance your gaining

1% additional battery on the taycan is about .834 kWh - that’s about 2 miles of driving range - it will take an additional 10-15 min to charge from 92% to 98% - 6% or about 12 miles range - if that 12 miles of range is make or break for your trip - then might I humbly suggest you’re doing it wrong…

if you pull into a fast charging stop at 40% or less - you can charge like 30% battery in less than 10 minutes…that’s 60 miles of range for 10 min stop vs. an extra 12 miles to spend an additional 10 min to get from 92% to 98% battery - the next 2% (98-100%) will take at least another 7 minutes

when road tripping an EV (and I’ve done it now for 7 years) - you stop thinking in terms of topping off - rather you charge enough to get the next stop plus a comfortable buffer - and honestly you’ll be surprised how quickly the car gets to 85% at a 150kw or better station…

my typical plan is - bio & food break at the mid day fast charging stop - I take my time - and I do my thing ignoring the vehicle - when I’m done at my stop I come back to the car and see how far it’s gotten…

guess what? often times in the normal course of a non-rushed stop the car has achieved more than enough charge to get to the next “stop” - and if it hasn’t we’re really really very close and only have to wait for a few minutes…

you don’t sit and stare at the car for 27 min while it’s charging - you go off and do something - and come back to find it done or nearly done - and honestly it doesn’t really add any time to the stop

more often than not I’m rushing back to the car to unplug it to avoid idle fee’s but it’s cut my stop short by being done so quickly…

 

[Jhenson29]

that’s 9 hour of on the road seat time - frankly I know some peole can road trip for 14-16 hours straight - but honestly who really really does that?

• and _IF_ that is your primary concern then an EV is not yet your thing
• but honestly how often do you need to do this?

I drive like that, which is why my EV is relegated to local use only.

My last trip in my Macan to the East Coast (approx 900 miles) had one stop at < 15 min of off highway time. That’s gas, restroom, and food.

And it’s frequent enough that I care. Last year I drove approximately 60k miles. Although that was high due to not flying for Covid. 45k is more typical, but still above average, I think. Maybe not. I didn’t look it up.

 

[daveo4EV]

I drive like that, which is why my EV is relegated to local use only.

My last trip in my Macan to the East Coast (approx 900 miles) had one stop at < 15 min of off highway time. That’s gas, restroom, and food.

And it’s frequent enough that I care. Last year I drove approximately 60k miles. Although that was high due to not flying for Covid. 45k is more typical, but still above average, I think. Maybe not. I didn’t look it up.

yeah then an EV isn’t for you -but I’ll still argue this isn’t the common use case and if it is stick with an iCE.

I can’t do this physically - I need to stop every 3-4 hours for a bio break anyways - and a lot of peers and co-workers feel the same way…

my hats off to you that you can do this - but it’s not a requirement for me - and it’s not at all frequent

I use fast chargers 10–15 times a years - and most of that in one 2 week period - the annual family trip - where one stop a day does it for our travel plans.

one stop a day is 500 miles of driving - most people don’t realize that - and when I ask them about it few if any ever need to drive more than 500 miles in one day - so given average annual milage of less than 15,000 miles - the vast majority of people don’t need a vehicle that can drive 900 miles in one stop…and at $5 gallon for gas at 23 mpg that’s $200 in fuel to spend 15 hours driving - I’d rather fly for $145 and spend only 6 hours traveling - rent a car at the other end.

but to each their own

I’m not saying it’s not for you or you need to fly

I just encourage people to quit focusing on the raw milage - 260 miles doesn’t sound like a lot - but honestly it takes 5 hours to drive 260 miles - and most people don’t spend 5 hours in a car without out some sort of stop - and 2 5 hour sessions a day is 520 miles - that’s a lot of distance for 1 40 min stop - 30 min if you really really push it at a 350 kW charger.

i’m find with spending 30 minutes to drive 520 miles day - which is 10 hours of seat time -it’s about all I can physically take.

 

[John89]

If I drive it like it's NOT a Porsche, 245-250 miles @ 100%.

If I drive it like its a Porsche, considerably less. Anything over 60-65 mph for an extended period will crush range. Over 85+ MPH, like its supposed to be driven, its about 200-215 miles of range @ 100%.

 

[submatrix]

(2) Why are my estimated miles remaining so volatile? Made a trip from San Diego to Las Vegas a couple days back. It was my first long trip in the Taycan, or any EV for that matter. My strategy was to use Waze, which tells me the number of miles until I reach my destination charging station, in my case Barstow CA.

How was the charger in Barstow btw? That'll probably be one of my stops when going to Vegas as well.

 

[Scandinavian]

@daveo4EV .
I agree with your conclusion about driving distances and comfort breaks, coffee stops etc. Before COVID we would typically drive about 1200 km in a day if pushed. From the Italian border to the Euro channel in Calais. With a Tesla M3 I found that more frequent breaks and charging stops actually reduced the overall travel time. I would charge fully at home and then drive it to 10 to 20% SOC. Quick stops at SuperChrgaers or Ionity chargers while we made a comfort break and some coffee. Typically we charged between 15% up to about 60+% and the stops were only about 15 to 20 minutes. Sometimes just from 10% to under 50%. And we never had to sit and wait for the car to charge. It was plug in, restroom, coffee or snack and stop charging.

I think the guys that did the CanonBall run with A Taycan did something similar?? EV long distance driving needs a completely different mindset to ICE long distance travel. We never charged the car fully while travelling!

Prerequisite for this is of course a dense and reliable charging network!! That is the issue that needs to be solved.

 

[SWORDER]

How was the charger in Barstow btw? That'll probably be one of my stops when going to Vegas as well.

In Barstow I used the Electrify America station at Walmart. Everything worked smoothly.

Walmart has clean restrooms which is nice, but I didn't see any open restaurants within walking distance. Would've been nice to stop for some eggs or something.

Next time I may try the Barstow outlet mall. They have a lot of chargers, are close to restaurants, but unfortunately only 62kW. No EA chargers.

 

[Miwa]

How was the charger in Barstow btw? That'll probably be one of my stops when going to Vegas as well.

Of the chargers I used between SF Bay area and Vegas, it's the easiest. It's at a WalMart, and there are a ton of chargers in 2 spots. The bathroom at the WalMart is right in the front too.

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