Taycan fire

[snstevens]

POST UPDATE
So I re-read the Car and Driver article, and they are actually questioning where the statistic of "x,xxx Fires / 100k Sales" actually came from and which year it may apply to. While the "Total Fires" adds up to a number roughly equal to the total in the image, without defining the meaning of "100k Sales" (is this yearly or total?) it is hard to understand the meaning of the statistics. I'll look into this further.


Original Post
Some interesting facts garnered from Perplexity.

“The exact number of auto fires in 2024 has not been finalized, but estimates suggest the trend remained consistent with previous years. Between 2018 and 2022, U.S. fire departments responded to an average of 215,096 vehicle fires annually. In 2021, there were approximately 174,000 highway vehicle fires reported, and this figure has shown relative stability in recent years.”

And from Car and Driver

Question
Are electric vehicles more prone to fires than gasoline vehicles

Answer
Electric vehicles (EVs) are significantly less prone to fires compared to gasoline-powered vehicles. Data from the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board shows that gasoline vehicles are 60 times more likely to catch fire than EVs, with hybrids being 138 times more likely For every 100,000 vehicles sold, EVs experience about 25 fires, compared to 1,530 fires for gasoline vehicles and 3,475 fires for hybrids.

As I've looked into this further I was curious as to why Hybrid vehicles were worse fire risks. Here is what I read, and it seems to make sense.

Factors contributing to hybrid vehicle fires:

1. Heat generation: The presence of both a gasoline engine and an electric battery system creates more heat than in EVs or gas-powered vehicles alone.
2. Complexity: The dual power sources in hybrids increase the complexity of the vehicle's systems, potentially leading to more points of failure.
3. Battery stress: The additional heat generated by the gasoline engine may put more stress on the lithium-ion battery, increasing the risk of thermal runaway.

It's important to note that while hybrid vehicles have a higher fire risk, car fires are generally rare across all vehicle types. However, the unique challenges posed by the combination of gasoline and electric power sources in hybrids contribute to their higher fire incidence compared to EVs and conventional gas-powered vehicles.

SPECULATION -- This information doesn't distinguish between Plug-In Hybrid and simple Hybrid Assist engines, so I'm not sure about Point 3. However, based on conversations with Plug-In Hybrid owners, I think there is a tendency to run the battery in a Plug-In hybrid from 100% SOC to 0% SOC and then back up to 100% over and over for cars that travel more than 50 miles/day. From my understanding of battery chemistry this charging profile may weaken the battery which could contribute to the likelihood of fire.

As stated, this is speculation, so please pass along other articles that provide greater insight.

Sponsored

 

[f1eng]

SPECULATION -- This information doesn't distinguish between Plug-In Hybrid and simple Hybrid Assist engines, so I'm not sure about Point 3. However, based on conversations with Plug-In Hybrid owners, I think there is a tendency to run the battery in a Plug-In hybrid from 100% SOC to 0% SOC and then back up to 100% over and over for cars that travel more than 50 miles/day. From my understanding of battery chemistry this charging profile may weaken the battery which could contribute to the likelihood of fire.

As stated, this is speculation, so please pass along other articles that provide greater insight.

I would add that there is a marked difference in layout of hybrid cars both in battery position relative to exhaust system and the location of the electric motor and how it merges with the IC engine and gearbox. Some are horribly complex to my engineering eye, some really elegant.

Our first Prius, Toyota has by far the simplest, lightest and most elegant hybrid system, is still in daily use by the present owner and still using its original hybrid traction battery at 20 years old and 140,000 miles. It has older Nickel-metal hydride battery chemistry though.

 

[azraeil]

Malaysia drives on the left side of the road. Have no idea if that car was right or left drive

Malaysia is RHD country (Steering wheel is on the right side of the car).

The EV community suspects it’s an electrical fire and not a thermal runaway. The owners must have done some improper modifications that messes with the wiring

if he’a on an agreed value with the insurance companies, he comes out on top.

 

[D00notD00d]

Malaysia drives on the left side of the road. Have no idea if that car was right or left drive

Is the brake fluid reservoir and related pipe work altered if the steering wheel position changes? That wouldnt be good design.

 

[D00notD00d]

In that same logic, plastic too.
If it's on fire it's an effect not a cause.
It doesn't ignite that easily cuz modern brake fluid is made of polyalkylene glycols and is highly hygroscopic.

I described it as flammable rather than inflammable - I.e . It does not easily catch fire on its own.
At sufficient temperature modern brake fluid will ignite, e.g. from surrounding materials.

 

[chun]

Most car fires are due to wires from 12V battery.

Most likely scenario is something went wrong with 12V battery, it caught fire, propagated to brake fluid reservoir and then it extended to rest of the car / HV battery.

Assuming the car had warranty, there will likely be a response from Porsche Malaysia, as it wasn't fire resulted from an accident, similar to 2 cases in china last year, where Porsche agreed it was due to water ingress in the battery enclosure.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Is the brake fluid reservoir and related pipe work altered if the steering wheel position changes? That wouldnt be good design.

It would have to move because if the brake pedal/master cylinder have to move. At least on every car I’ve ever seen, but I’m in the US and have never owned a car with the steering wheel on the right.

 

[RickDC]

there is a recall for possible fire and software has been installed to watch the battery. LG pouch batteries are unreliable.

 

[plamichigan]

POST UPDATE
So I re-read the Car and Driver article, and they are actually questioning where the statistic of "x,xxx Fires / 100k Sales" actually came from and which year it may apply to. While the "Total Fires" adds up to a number roughly equal to the total in the image, without defining the meaning of "100k Sales" (is this yearly or total?) it is hard to understand the meaning of the statistics. I'll look into this further.


Original Post
Some interesting facts garnered from Perplexity.

“The exact number of auto fires in 2024 has not been finalized, but estimates suggest the trend remained consistent with previous years. Between 2018 and 2022, U.S. fire departments responded to an average of 215,096 vehicle fires annually. In 2021, there were approximately 174,000 highway vehicle fires reported, and this figure has shown relative stability in recent years.”

And from Car and Driver

Question
Are electric vehicles more prone to fires than gasoline vehicles

Answer
Electric vehicles (EVs) are significantly less prone to fires compared to gasoline-powered vehicles. Data from the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board shows that gasoline vehicles are 60 times more likely to catch fire than EVs, with hybrids being 138 times more likely For every 100,000 vehicles sold, EVs experience about 25 fires, compared to 1,530 fires for gasoline vehicles and 3,475 fires for hybrids.

 

[plamichigan]

The statistic about EV fires compared to ICE fires has been, in multiple variations, going around for the past 2 years. I have never seen it carefully supported. Among the problems, the NFPA report on vehicle fires doesn't include the words "EV" or "BEV" or "electrical vehicle.":
https://www.nfpa.org/education-and-...search/fire-statistical-reports/vehicle-fires

Even one of the online articles (with the title "You're wrong about EV fires") admits:

" The NFPA analysis even goes out of its way to mention the lack of data on EVs and makes no claims about the frequency or likelihood of EV fires."

Even when you see statistics (and the article had a graphic with some statistic), I note the following (agreeing with at least two others here):

1. Age-adjusted statistics would be better than comparing:
(a) an ICE fleet that has (in the US) over 200 million units, many of which are 10 years + old and used less, are modified, have repair issues, etc.; and
(b) an EV fleet that has an average age of probably 3 years or less, and is sold to mostly affluent homeowners, and whom appear to drive fewer miles.

The available data (see graph) shows that age of vehicle is strongly correlated with fire incidence.

2. Severity of fires matter as much as frequency.

3. Does it really make sense to compare number of fires with sales? That's what is in one of the graphics. That doesn't really make much sense. Comparing number of fires with number in fleet, or number of miles driven in the fleet, or some similar measure makes sense. EV sales are, relative to the size of the fleet, very large. ICE sales are a fairly stable fraction of the fleet. Thus, a statistic measure fleet effects compared to sales is going to be distorted with BEVs.

I would very much like to see real data, supported by actual research, on this question. If somebody finds it, please post it here.

PLA

 

[ze_shark]

In my view, what matters most and is not captured in these stats is fire while in operation vs fire after accident vs fire while charging.

Fire while charging can be expected to be more prevalent with EVs, and is chilling from a safety standpoint.

 

[cometguy]

In my view, what matters most and is not captured in these stats is fire while in operation vs fire after accident vs fire while charging.

Fire while charging can be expected to be more prevalent with EVs, and is chilling from a safety standpoint.

exactly... I'm not worried or afraid of my Taycan or our two PHEVs catching fire while we're on the road or in a parking lot somewhere. My only worry is any of them catching fire in our garage at home.

 

[BjörnfromHamburg]

there is a recall for possible fire and software has been installed to watch the battery. LG pouch batteries are unreliable.

No they are not. This is fear-mongering.

 

[snstevens]

Fire while charging can be expected to be more prevalent with EVs, and is chilling from a safety standpoint.

There is simply no evidence for this assertion. If you were correct, then EVs would literally be bursting into fire all over the place, regardless of manufacturer.

If you are afraid, then just sell the car, but either way, please stop making statements that have no factual basis.

 

[RickDC]

No they are not. This is fear-mongering.

I got the battery recall for my Taycan, I saw a nice 2024 Taycan in Tyson Corner VA, Porsche dealer and they refuse to take my 2021 Taycan with 6K miles a car that still under warranty. So if the Porsche dealer doesn’t want to take a Porsche Taycan due battery fears to sale another Taycan is that fear monger?? Btw I sold it in Carvana and got a Macan EV 4S with CATL batteries

Sponsored