Warranty on the Porsche charger?

[Hirschaj]

I have a mustart one as a backup, but have the Porsche one installed so nicely that I'd rather get it back to working lol

Good luck. There is no actual “fix” for that EVSE that I am aware of. When I brought mine in for warranty service due to charging error, they put a sticker on it and set it to run at 50% of what is should have been capable of. That was about a year ago so YMMV. Looking forward to hearing your resolution on this one.

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[amelen]

Good luck. There is no actual “fix” for that EVSE that I am aware of. When I brought mine in for warranty service due to charging error, they put a sticker on it and set it to run at 50% of what is should have been capable of. That was about a year ago so YMMV. Looking forward to hearing your resolution on this one.

Yup, that was the recommended "fix" from Porsche. I refused to give them mine because of that - but I guess that's very likely what broke it in the end.

 

[daveo4EV]

Yup, that was the recommended "fix" from Porsche. I refused to give them mine because of that - but I guess that's very likely what broke it in the end.

I don't think running it at "full" capacity 'broke' it - I think Porsche's units are just not that good regardless of how they are used - the 50% "fix" was to address the fact that the normal operating temperature of their power supply cable was contributing to thermal stress failures in cheap/off-the-shelf NEMA 14-50/6-50 power sockets(melting)…they did a few things - but I believe Porsche now supports running at 100% capacity if you have an appropriately robust commercial/industrial quality socket…(Hubble ceramic models that won't melt due to Porsche's power supply cable temps).

to be clear - Porsche's "fix" was a never a fix - it was a mitigation to address a very real thermal issue that Porsche doesn't want to have to re-issue 1000's of new power supply cables - the "solution" of running at 1/2 capacity does lower the temperature of the power supply cable but at the expense of 2x the charge time…after the initial recommendation to run at 50% - Porsche then issued a detailed charging guidelines document where they recommend/require a high quality socket which won't melt due to their power supply cable's normal operating temperature. None of this was done (to my knowledge and my opinion) to address any long term failures…such as this one - but it may also "help" for longevity vs. this type of failure - but that means the PMC+/PMCC units are still terrible products, and can not be used/trusted running at their specified capacities - shameless.

to me this thread is just more "sauce for the goose" about the quality of the PMC+/PMCC and Porsche's willingness to actually support it…their product in this space has issues - and none of them are any good for the consumer.

In the 3 years of my Taycan ownership there is just more and more and more factual data that the North American PMC+/PMCC are not quality products - and Porsche has terrible support for this product if you have issues.

 

[amelen]

I don't think running it at "full" capacity 'broke' it - I think Porsche's units are just not that good regardless of how they are used - the 50% "fix" was to address the fact that the normal operating temperature of their power supply cable was contributing to thermal stress failures in cheap/off-the-shelf NEMA 14-50/6-50 power sockets(melting)…they did a few things - but I believe Porsche now supports running at 100% capacity if you have an appropriately robust commercial/industrial quality socket…(Hubble ceramic models that won't melt due to Porsche's power supply cable temps).

to be clear - Porsche's "fix" was a never a fix - it was a mitigation to address a very real thermal issue that Porsche doesn't want to have to re-issue 1000's of new power supply cables - the "solution" of running at 1/2 capacity does lower the temperature of the power supply cable but at the expense of 2x the charge time…after the initial recommendation to run at 50% - Porsche then issued a detailed charging guidelines document where they recommend/require a high quality socket which won't melt due to their power supply cable's normal operating temperature. None of this was done (to my knowledge and my opinion) to address any long term failures…such as this one - but it may also "help" for longevity vs. this type of failure - but that means the PMC+/PMCC units are still terrible products, and can not be used/trusted running at their specified capacities - shameless.

to me this thread is just more "sauce for the goose" about the quality of the PMC+/PMCC and Porsche's willingness to actually support it…their product in this space has issues - and none of them are any good for the consumer.

In the 3 years of my Taycan ownership there is just more and more and more factual data that the North American PMC+/PMCC are not quality products - and Porsche has terrible support for this product if you have issues.

Yup, agreed.

Good point on the NEMA plug - mine is from Amazon - it's rated for 50AMPS of course, but I'm going to inspect it to see if there is any damage from the plug. I did hear some sounds from it as the lights go red on the Porsche charger - so could certainly be the exact issue that Porsche was trying to fix.

 

[daveo4EV]

Yup, agreed.

Good point on the NEMA plug - mine is from Amazon - it's rated for 50AMPS of course, but I'm going to inspect it to see if there is any damage from the plug. I did hear some sounds from it as the lights go red on the Porsche charger - so could certainly be the exact issue that Porsche was trying to fix.

this is Porsche's "official" charging guidelines TSB document for North America…they blame all their issues on cheap ass american's installing $0.29 NEMA sockets (not really $0.29 but you get the gist).

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/search/930877/?q=ntsb&c[title_only]=1&c[users]=daveo4EV&o=date

they recommend/require a Hubble commerical/industry socket - and on this one issue I agree w/Porsche 100% - they are not wrong and it's best practice across the industry - the cheap/plastic residential grade NEMA sockets are not designed for full capacity usage for hours on end day in and day out for week/months/years - they just aren't since most NEMA 14-50 usage patterns are not the unrelenting constant load of an EVSE…they are cheap but lack robustness in face of continuous loads for hours on end.

I'm not sure why a socket failure leads to the PMC+ needing to be reset or outright failure - but the two could be related…personally I'm not happy purchasing a 9.6 kW EVSE to be told it really will only work well if you use it at 4.8 kW.

 

[Hirschaj]

this is Porsche's "official" charging guidelines TSB document for North America…they blame all their issues on cheap ass american's installing $0.29 NEMA sockets (not really $0.29 but you get the gist).

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/search/930877/?q=ntsb&c[title_only]=1&c[users]=daveo4EV&o=date

they recommend/require a Hubble commerical/industry socket - and on this one issue I agree w/Porsche 100% - they are not wrong and it's best practice across the industry - the cheap/plastic residential grade NEMA sockets are not designed for full capacity usage for hours on end day in and day out for week/months/years - they just aren't since most NEMA 14-50 usage patterns are not the unrelenting constant load of an EVSE…they are cheap but lack robustness in face of continuous loads for hours on end.

I'm not sure why a socket failure leads to the PMC+ needing to be reset or outright failure - but the two could be related…personally I'm not happy purchasing a 9.6 kW EVSE to be told it really will only work well if you use it at 4.8 kW.

FWIW... I installed an industrial grade socket with my Porsche PMC+. The PMC+ still failed. The socket did not melt or malfunction. I am using the same exact socket today (didn't replace it, just unplugged old EVSE, plugged in new EVSE) with my Lectron V-BOX EVSE without any issues at all. F Porsche and their failure to properly address an actual problem with the EVSE that I paid for with my car. It's stupid decisions like this that will make customers look for other options (and there will be many) when the time comes to replace the Taycan.

 

[daveo4EV]

FWIW... I installed an industrial grade socket with my Porsche PMC+. The PMC+ still failed. The socket did not melt or malfunction. I am using the same exact socket today (didn't replace it, just unplugged old EVSE, plugged in new EVSE) with my Lectron V-BOX EVSE without any issues at all. F Porsche and their failure to properly address an actual problem with the EVSE that I paid for with my car. It's stupid decisions like this that will make customers look for other options (and there will be many) when the time comes to replace the Taycan.

I understand and appreciate the sentiment - but personally I'm not willing to eschew a great car over an accessory - but again I feel Porsche's charging game in North America is weak (slow or fast) - and they need to up their game.

but if you want the best EV sports sedan I think Taycan is it - and there are not a lot of alternatives…

but I 100% understand - this situation is not a good look for Porsche - and other EV vendors seem to be more concerned about their charging game.

for me I'm not going to be able to give porsche EV monies for any future purchase if they remain head in the sand on the Supercharging access issue…and I think VW/Audi/Porsche are working to push their heads further into the sand on that topic…rather than capitulate to Musk. For that I may have to look elsewhere for my Taycan and eventual Cayenne Hybrid replacement.

 

[daveo4EV]

this thread is now part of the "ultimate guild to PMC+/PMCC' - thread - more data for the overall quality of the PMC+/PMCC

there is a story being told here…

 

[amelen]

So it looks like what Porsche was concerned about is exactly what happened. The Porsche charger melted the nema plug. To note, I barely use the car and have it set to charge to 70% and never go below 30%. So I've never left it charging for more then a few hours at a time.

 

[daveo4EV]

So it looks like what Porsche was concerned about is exactly what happened. The Porsche charger melted the nema plug. To note, I barely use the car and have it set to charge to 70% and never go below 30%. So I've never left it charging for more then a few hours at a time.

yep - but Porsche's powersupply cable operates "as intended" at 160F or more normal operating temperature - the Hubble sockets are required for these beasts

I'll humbly suggest Porsche's PMC+ did the right thing here - dropping off line - this is the very definition of an electrical "fault" due to low-quality NEMA 14-50 socket.

in seeing these problems occur overtime I think it's a gradual failure where the plastic nema sockets heat up - deform ever so slightly and then cool - rinse/lather/repeat head/cool/deform cycle and eventually they deform enough to tip into failure…the deformation is due to the thermal stress from the nominal operating temperature of the Porsche Powersupply cable at 9.6 kW loads…

the ceramic Hubble NEMA sockets are best practice for _ANY_ EVSE from any vendor, but for Porsche in particular they are "required".

Porsche's TSB document contains the recommended part numbers for an appropriate commercial/industrial quality socket.

 

[daveo4EV]

So it looks like what Porsche was concerned about is exactly what happened. The Porsche charger melted the nema plug. To note, I barely use the car and have it set to charge to 70% and never go below 30%. So I've never left it charging for more then a few hours at a time.

in my experience the Porsche power supply cable achieves it's maximum/stable nominal operating temperature in about 45-70 minutes - once it's there it's stable - but it will be at that temperature for the entire charging session…

cheaper plastics become soft/malleable at 140/150F and my PMCC powersupply cables (when I was using them) routinely achieved 160F/165F operating temperatures in 64F ambient conditions (a rise above ambient of 100F) - I think we can all envision/understand that routinely subjecting a cheap plastic socket to 160F (or more based on ambient conditions) can lead to thermal stress induced failures - given a melting/softening points in plastics of 130-150F - most plastics are simply not designed ot handle very very high temps - and as mentioned - heat/cool the plastic daily for hours on end it deforms a bit each time it's heated/cooled and lead to these sorts of outcomes…

sympathies for your situation - but this does fall firmly in the category of "known" issue - and is the EXACT reason Porsche had their safety recall to nerf their EVSE's.

 

[amelen]

For what it's worth it was never plugged in for more then 2-3 hours at a time - and only drive 100-200 miles/mo - so the use has been minimal. But yes, it looks like the nema plug is at fault in this case - although my mustart charger, which I used for a while before the Porsche one, never had any issues. I think it's load is slightly less though.

Anyway to reset the Porsche charger after I replace the plug with a Hubble one?

 

[daveo4EV]

For what it's worth it was never plugged in for more then 2-3 hours at a time - and only drive 100-200 miles/mo - so the use has been minimal. But yes, it looks like the nema plug is at fault in this case - although my mustart charger, which I used for a while before the Porsche one, never had any issues. I think it's load is slightly less though.

Anyway to reset the Porsche charger after I replace the plug with a Hubble one?

I personally do not know how to "reset" the PMC+ unit - probably a porsche dealer visit for that…if you find out please share.

other EVSE's use 8 or 6 gauge wire for their 9.6 kW power supply cables (porsche uses AWG 10) - Porsche's design choice here runs hotter than alternative products from other vendors. The choice by other vendors to use 8/6 gauge wire means their power supply cables run cooler at the same 9.6 kW loads (I've measured 105F on some other EVSE power supply cables 40-45F delta above ambient temps) - this places less thermal stress on cheap plastic NEMA sockets…which may contribute to the lack of problems. EE load tables estimate a 90F "delta" thermal increase for 40 amp/9.6 kW loads on AWG 10 wire…porsche product is spot on vs. predicted thermals for that type of wire…

Porsche has made a design/engineering choice to stick wtih the AWG 10 wire in North American and their cable is designed to handle the associated thermal load safely. I don't think they fully considered the effect the thermals would have on $0.29 plastic NEMA sockets sold at Home Depot/Lowes and has lead us to this unfortunate place…the fix in their mind is not to redesign their cable to run cooler, but rather blame the cheap NEMA sockets for being thermally intolerant and recommend/require a more thermally robust NEMA socket - they are not entirely wrong on this - just a bit inflexible in my opinion.

The fact that other 9.6 kW EVSE's have run for years in North America with out melting cheap NEMA sockets is not a compelling argument to Porsche to change their design. Rather they have their document and you should use a high quality NEMA socket…that won't melt/deform over time when used with the PMC+/PMCC.

it's a very german approach - but in line with other EV vendors who also stipulate the higher quality NEMA sockets for their EVSE's - even if they don't achieve Porsche's normal operating temperatures…

but it would be nice if Porsche's power supply cable didn't achieve 160F operating temperature in normal use - picture how safe it would be if the cable only got to 105F in normal use _AND_ you had a high quality NEMA socket…best of both worlds.

Your mustart unit is either a 32 amp unit (lower thermals) or if it's a 9.6 kW unit from what I know of Mustart they are using at least 8 AWG wire or 6 AWG wire - which will experience a smaller thermal rise in temperature thereby placing less thermal stress on associated plastic NEMA sockets.

Porsche's design is "safe" - but a simple change could lead to lower normal operating temperatures - but that would require Porsche to want to make that change and it's more than just Porsche - this EVSE is distributed in all of North America for VW/Audi/Porsche - full EV's and Hybrids - and it would be a huge admission for them to make a change - and may have legal implications for them to do so (speculation on my part).

so they are sticking to their story - our cable is fine (they are not wrong) - it's your cheap ass wimpy $0.29 plastic NEMA socket that can't handle the power and awesome that _IS_ Porsche engineering! Get a good socket and our stuff will work fine.

 

[SteveTaycan101]

I have a mustart one as a backup, but have the Porsche one installed so nicely that I'd rather get it back to working lol

I just had my Porsche Mobile Charger replaced at my dealership under warranty and at no cost to me.

 

[amelen]

I just had my Porsche Mobile Charger replaced at my dealership under warranty and at no cost to me.

How old was it?

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