High Voltage Battery Recall EXPANDED - ARB6 & ARB7

[JohnnyCage]

Trip down memory lane with all the recalls and scandals here... Almost worth a separate topic…

Back ontopic:
Interested to see when the rest of Europe picks this up. If the brake recall is any reference, we will get the letter in the Netherlands late, but the actual fix more quickly than most.

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[Jonathan S.]

I don't think that's true. There was at least one fatal incident (1 of 2 occupants died) where the car left heavy tire marks on the pavement as the driver was slamming on the brakes (confirmed by the surviving occupant, I don't remember if it was the driver or passenger). I am not 100% certain but I think it was a hybrid Toyota. This is the kind of thing which proper safety process should catch, and appropriate mitigations, such making sure braking always takes precedence over accelerator, should flow from the relevant FMEA (Failure Modes and Effect Analysis).

The braking was with the emergency brake.
The driver might have testified that the foot was on the brake pedal -- and probably truly thought that -- but the foot was actually on the accelerator pedal.
Otherwise, the car would have stopped.

I still remember reading the C&D test back in 1987 in the wake of the Audi 5000 cases: highway braking speed at full throttle vs closed throttle.
I didn't realized until now though that C&D reran that test in 2009:
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a16576573/how-to-deal-with-unintended-acceleration/
At 70mph, the add'l stopping distances for the tested Camry and G37 are more like what would be found from different tires, testing protocols, or within-model trims.
(A 750hp tuner car took far longer, but no cars like that were at issue here.)

I'm not denying that unintended acceleration can occur b/c of design flaws, whether pedal entrapment or cruise control.
But when it does occur, stomping on the brake would have stopped the cars at issue almost just as quickly as w/o whatever malfunction might have occurred.
(Simultaneous full-throttle unintended acceleration combined with total sudden brake failure? Sure, it's within the realm of the physically possible. But that didn't happen in any of these cases.)

 

[Jonathan S.]

It certainly affected owners indirectly.

The 2014 Targa 4S I traded on my first Taycan had a "stop sale" because of emissions cheating in the Sports Plus mode. I was lowballed on the trade for this reason, as they were taking in a car they couldn't yet sell.

Ouch -- definitely horrible timing!
Although that was an entirely different scandal than Dieselgate, and apparently on all Porsche models (except the Macan?) but only those with Sport Chrono, on which Sport Plus also meant Spew Away.
I wonder if that was deliberate cheating or just an unintended consequence of boosting performance in Sport Plus?

 

[whitex]

But when it does occur, stomping on the brake would have stopped the cars at issue almost just as quickly as w/o whatever malfunction might have occurred.

Not necessarily on cars where a computer can remove braking in lieu of regenerative braking. Think Taycan, when using regen, your foot is pressing the brake, yet your brake pads are not moving. I hope Porsche did an FMEA and implemented some sort of mitigations, such as if the brake pedal is all the way to the floor (or close) the brakes are mechanically activated by the pedal no matter what, or some other version of it. Toyota hybrids are often two wheel drive, which could explain why stomping on the brake would brake only 2 wheels (perhaps the drive wheel brakes are under computer control, not foot control). Tesla's solution has always been to keep the brakes fully mechanical (computer can actuate the brake pedal down, but not up, at least on the ones I had).

 

[Jonathan S.]

^ Interesting theoretical point. But that is not what happened with the Toyota incidents (or the Audi 5000).

 

[whitex]

^ Interesting theoretical point. But that is not what happened with the Toyota incidents (or the Audi 5000).

If they were all user not hitting the brake, why did Toyota end up paying so much money? Ability of brake to fully override the accelerator in all cases would have qualified as a valid safety mitigation.

 

[Jonathan S.]

If they were all user not hitting the brake, why did Toyota end up paying so much money? Ability of brake to fully override the accelerator in all cases would have qualified as a valid safety mitigation.

Same reason as with the Audi 5000.

 

[whitex]

Same reason as with the Audi 5000.

I am not at all familiar with the Audi 5000 case.

 

[Jonathan S.]

I am not at all familiar with the Audi 5000 case.

https://manhattan.institute/article/manufacturing-the-audi-scare
I followed it closely at the time.
An Audi with both AWD & ABS just seemed like the ultimate ski car.
The cool thing to have when I was a junior ski racer was either the AMC Eagle or the pre-Legacy Subaru, but although with their part-time 4WD systems they wouldn't get stuck in the snowy or muddy parking lot at Greek Peak, they were miserable vehicles otherwise.
So when the scandal broke, it was some revered person I greatly admired was revealed to be less than revere-able.
But then the real scandal was that the scandal was 100% driver error.
(And shortly thereafter Subaru introduced the Legacy with both AWD & ABS, so I had a string of five of those sedans before getting hooked by increasingly expensive German cars.)

 

[whitex]

https://manhattan.institute/article/manufacturing-the-audi-scare
I followed it closely at the time.
An Audi with both AWD & ABS just seemed like the ultimate ski car.
The cool thing to have when I was a junior ski racer was either the AMC Eagle or the pre-Legacy Subaru, but although with their part-time 4WD systems they wouldn't get stuck in the snowy or muddy parking lot at Greek Peak, they were miserable vehicles otherwise.
So when the scandal broke, it was some revered person I greatly admired was revealed to be less than revere-able.
But then the real scandal was that the scandal was 100% driver error.
(And shortly thereafter Subaru introduced the Legacy with both AWD & ABS, so I had a string of five of those sedans before getting hooked by increasingly expensive German cars.)

Accelerator/brake pedal confusion is more common than people see. No manufacturer had millions of dollars to pay for that. Two of my own relatives launched their cars, one just on the grass, the other through the garage wall and came out the other side, due to such confusion. Perhaps it's a different case than the Toyota case:
https://www.transportation.gov/brie...ults-nhtsa-nasa-study-unintended-acceleration

PS> Toyota has had logs of brake/accelerator way before unintended accelerator case, so proving that customer was pressing the accelerator and/or not pressing the brake was easy. I remember servicing my Lexus back in 2006, a customer came in complaining about car stalling on the highway - the tech was able to pull logs and inform the customer of their fat foot (ok, he worded it more nicely) - i.e. customer was actually pressing both accelerator and brake at the same time, creating an impression of a stalling engine.

 

[Fantasmos]

I have asked my dealer about the battery recall since the car is in Germany right now for the brake line campaign and the answer was:

"We have no further information about additional recalls. We will do everything on your Tacan that is prescribed by Porsche Germany, everything will be fine."

 

[d00d]

Never had any problems with my Audi 5000, but saw my grandfather driving his AMC backwards and launching off a retaining wall, narrowly missing a passing sail boat.
He had confused reverse for drive, and accelerator pedal for brake.
My father dove in and pulled him out, fun times.

 

[Genau]

Since I haven't driven a car with a clutch pedal in a very long time, I've trained myself to brake with my left foot. That should eliminate the risk of unintended acceleration.

 

[BjörnfromHamburg]

That's a good idea actually. Gonna try that!

 

[Jonathan S.]

Since I haven't driven a car with a clutch pedal in a very long time, I've trained myself to brake with my left foot. That should eliminate the risk of unintended acceleration.

And here I thought I was the only one who did that! Okay, not quite, but I find the controversy rather surprising for that practice. My reaction time is quicker, and it also mitigates the anatomical asymmetry from driving. Bonus points too I suppose from hitting the wrong pedal with my right foot.

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