Porsche is Toast! A Wake-Up Call From the Streets of Shenzhen...

[chun]

Mock all you will, but Porsche isn't for the average person, never is and never should be.

What are you suggesting? Doing what everybody else is doing in a super competitive environment...?

Surely, everyone is wrong, and porsche is right

Standup routine?

Porsche is for the average person. Who drives the best selling Porsche? Mums, taking their kids to school and picking grocceries.

Last time I checked, most mums aren't pro drivers. Just your average person.

You sir, are clearly living in Narnia if you think Porsche is not for the average person. Last time I checked, they sold some other cars beside 918 and GT1. But hey, you love analog, but drive a e-tron GT The 997 was out of stock at Porsche Classic Center?

Get real.

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[chun]

Did you know that cleaner air actually warms up the planet quicker?
It's called global brightening effect.
Love the irony.

The confusion arises from conflating two different types of emissions with opposite effects on temperature: cooling aerosols (particulate pollution) and warming greenhouse gases (like CO₂).

Greenhouse Gases (CO₂), like ICE cars primarily emit carbon dioxide, which traps heat in the atmosphere for centuries. This is the dominant driver of long-term global warming. Unlike aerosols, CO₂ does not reflect sunlight; it prevents heat from escaping Earth.

Aerosols (Particulates), which ICE cars also emit sulfates and other particulates that reflect sunlight and cool the planet temporarily (days to weeks). While removing these causes "brightening," the amount of cooling they provide is small compared to the massive heating caused by the CO₂ emitted by the same vehicle.

Google is free. But it is indeed not analog.

 

[logic]

You sir, are clearly living in Narnia if you think Porsche is not for the average person. Last time I checked, they sold some other cars beside 918 and GT1. But hey, you love analog, but drive a e-tron GT The 997 was out of stock at Porsche Classic Center?
Get real.

Google is free. But it is indeed not analog.

The E-Tron GT does certain things more analog than the Taycan does, thanks for noticing. It's probably wise for me to be exiting the discussion if you're taking it too personal. This is a Porsche forum, most of us are living a life that 99% cannot. I don't think the Macan is average, you might feel differently and I do understand your perspective.

 

[feye]

I still love my Taycan. It just looks great. It also sits very well on the road, for sure. But the rattling of the cupholder was something that shocked me from day one. How on earth can that happen in a US$220,000 car?

My buddy bought a Porsche Macan in Hong Kong over a year ago, basically when it was launched. I told him it could be good, because I assumed Porsche had learned some lessons from the Taycan. I was wrong. Right from the start he complained that the sensors would trigger the collision warning when he was simply driving up a steep ramp in a car park. Then the car developed voltage problems and spent so much time in the shop that Porsche replaced almost everything they could, but to no avail. With the dual licence plate, this caused him a lot of additional headaches. After about a year, Porsche bought the car back for around 90% of what he had paid. How embarrassing.

For a few years now, I have lived half the year in Munich and the other half in Shenzhen. Every time I arrive in Munich, I increasingly feel as if I am back in a museum. There are lots of cars driving around with the H on the licence plate, which in Germany means a historic car. You see nothing like this in Shenzhen.
The strange thing is that when I sit in my Taycan here in Shenzhen, I sometimes feel that it should have an H plate as well. How is it possible that in just six years the Taycan, Porsche's innovation masterpiece, can already feel almost historic compared with what is driving around on the roads here?
Just for context, InnoDrive was not offered in China when I bought mine. I am not sure whether it is available in the latest model. But even if it is, the entire interior, the usability and the digital concept still feel like an analogue ICE car.

This weekend I went to the southern outskirts of Guangzhou. On the highway, and also around Shenzhen, I saw more and more cars with the four cyan lights switched on, indicating that the autonomous driving system is active. This started about a year ago. Last Christmas I saw a few. Now I see them on almost every drive in and around the city. There are autonomous small delivery vehicles. There are autonomous taxis, with at least two companies operating fleets of them. And there are more and more privately owned cars from brands offering advanced autonomous driving in their latest models, including Huawei-related brands, Zeekr, Geely, Li and others.

Last summer I was in a Porsche shop again because of a small issue with my Taycan. The showroom was so quiet. Later that summer we went for a test drive of our Maextro S800, one of the new Huawei car brands. The showroom was packed. And now I see these cars everywhere on the road. They sell like hot cakes. They know how to do digital cars. The app for the car is packed with features. What do I have from Porsche? Nothing useful. The app does not work with my car. The Porsche dealership offered to install some additional hardware that would allow an app to control the car to some extent, but I simply do not drive it enough to justify investing more money into it.

In a couple of years, I will sell it and move on to a robot car. And this is really the point I was trying to make in my original post. This is not simply another story about foreign competition destroying the German car industry. We have heard that story before. First the Japanese were supposedly going to kill the European car industry. Then the Koreans. They became serious competitors, of course, but in the end they were still building essentially the same product: cars competing with other cars.

What is happening in China now is different. The technology itself has changed. The large battery is always on. It powers the sensors, cameras, computers and AI systems. Autonomous driving is becoming part of normal daily use. The software and the intelligence of the car are becoming as important as the drivetrain, the chassis or the engine once were. Chinese manufacturers are not simply producing cheaper versions of German cars. They are producing cheaper cars packed with technology that offer a fundamentally different usability. The Chinese are increasingly delivering robots on wheels. That is a very different story, because it changes the definition of what a car needs to be.

And that is what astonishes me most when I come back to Germany: not that Chinese companies are moving quickly, but that so many German automotive managers still seem unable to see what is happening in China right in front of them.

 

[Fish Fingers]

That's really interesting....
Thankyou for taking time to write it up.

China are also leaping ahead with clean energy to power it all aren't they?

What are the 4 lights for autonomous driving?

 

[F1Ruaraidh]

Great write up with my humble view from the Midwest of USA Indiana.

10-year brand owner with recent cars for context:
2020 Cayenne Turbo (recently sold) no ACC (because I did not like the big bulb look)
2024 Macan GTS (gasoline) with ACC (standard equipment)
2023 Taycan Turbo with Innodrive (keeps you in the center of the lane at best)
2026 Macan EV GTS with Drive Assist (arrived and not driven yet)

#1. 100% agree about the blunder to push Macan gasoline buyers into EV version.

Macan gas line is what people buy here in the US with loaner fleet alone would justify its existence. I do wonder what loaner car I would get when I do service any of the above moving forward?

2028 Macan gas/hybrid future looks like to be an Audi gas/hybrid underneath, so not sure who is going to buy that at double the price of competitive offerings.

Macan EV no one is buying around here but me as there were no takers for 2026 GTS or Turbos and all lower trims the dealer just orders one or two to keep on a lot.

I just did a quick math, and this is how Macan EV is positioned, understanding this autonomous stuff is a sub on the Model Y, but still, why someone would spend 2x and do not get anything close to FSD that is now expected by young professionals who can afford 2x but they do not care about driving dynamics on commutes in an SUV body. Also, they would be shocked by the cost of maintenance on the Macan EV, while on a 2-year 20k mile interval, but expect to pay $2k+ per visit. The Service Department has to justify its existence EVs or not, so they have a clever plan to make the labor cost 3x of the gas car and now they have no impact on their money making plans.

Model Y AWD: $40k
Macan 4S: $80k

Model Y Performance: $60k
Macan EV GTS: $120k

Our traffic in the Indianapolis area has been on a horrific trend with the road system not able to handle explosive migration to the area and increase of passthrough commercial traffic that, for example, I use to get to work competing with that interstate traffic. Outer loop connecting roads are loaded at levels that were projected to only reach by 2040 and it is all day long, none of that peak hours stuff any more to manage around it.

#2. 100% agree and I was surprised to read about it recently, but it is business.

#3. 100% agree on the Always On that Porsche is not even close and what a great way to state it as a concept. For example, our new Macan EV, will not stay on for more than 30 min, so if I want to run a powered cooler from 115V in the trunk, say when we go on a hike and want our drinks to be cold, the car will not power it past 30 min as it uses 12V to do so. What I have to do is to have a battery in the cooler that cost as much as the cooler to keep it running past 30 min. Therefore, Macan EV is pretty much useless for just a short walk in the park, forget any kind of overnight camping and it cannot obviously power a house like say Rivian R2. Well, it does not even keep the music playing when you close all doors when you are out and in park to preserve 12V.

#4. 100% Agree. Driving Dynamics is for the analog generation, so I just drove that Macan EV to the PPF shop for 30 minutes and I am wow how great it drives, but my son who will be the driver of it, does not give a wits ends about it and wants the digital autonomous stuff, but he does not want anything else, since he has not known anything else, but I think Drive Assist will be just fine for his daily 100 mile round trip college commute. I think of it as paying for the car instead of paying to live on campus since college looks to be about 8 months out of the year.

GREAT POST!!!

 

[PNWTaycan4S]

After having to sell a rusty '58 Convertible D to go back to college, I'm a keeper: My '91 964 C2 my daughter grew up in, the '20 4S daily factory ordered in 2019, and a '24 T Manual for tours.

 

[John in LA]

*Please delete this thread* is what I'm thinking, sorry to say it so bluntly, I'm actually afraid that someone at Porsche would listen to the OP.

I have almost ZERO (0,000001) interest in autonomous driving. It's a nice little option to have under certain conditions, but not top of mind (when buying a Porsche). In the 'best of options' ranking, it's somewhere below rubber floor mats for me.

The same with much of the tech on board, agreed, whatever there is should work reliably,
but I'm no fan of putting a lot of effort into unnecessary gimmicks, adding more complexity both from the perspective of a manufacturer nor driver.

You feel me, I'm from the analog generation. I'm very pragmatic (almost skeptic) when it comes to needing a supercomputer on wheels... let the Chinese do whatever they like, but it feels unnecessary and not sustainable.

Porsche shouldn't be doing what generic brands are doing for the general public. Porsche only is in trouble when those generic brands come close (or surpasses) what Porsche stands for. That's the real problem.

Oh boy, why should I be talking to my car or having a conversation with a squirrel, please shoot me. It's when performance, driving feel and pleasure, reliability, quality of manufacturing and materials, looks, ... geeky over engineered mechanics, classic criteria for a sportscar, ... if Porsche gets a beating on those things by an inexperienced Chinese manufacturer, that's when I (and the Porsche board) will realize Porsche is in trouble.

 

[John in LA]

*Please delete this thread* is what I'm thinking, sorry to say it so bluntly, I'm actually afraid that someone at Porsche would listen to the OP.

I have almost ZERO (0,000001) interest in autonomous driving. It's a nice little option to have under certain conditions, but not top of mind (when buying a Porsche). In the 'best of options' ranking, it's somewhere below rubber floor mats for me.

The same with much of the tech on board, agreed, whatever there is should work reliably,
but I'm no fan of putting a lot of effort into unnecessary gimmicks, adding more complexity both from the perspective of a manufacturer nor driver.

You feel me, I'm from the analog generation. I'm very pragmatic (almost skeptic) when it comes to needing a supercomputer on wheels... let the Chinese do whatever they like, but it feels unnecessary and not sustainable.

Porsche shouldn't be doing what generic brands are doing for the general public. Porsche only is in trouble when those generic brands come close (or surpasses) what Porsche stands for. That's the real problem.

Oh boy, why should I be talking to my car or having a conversation with a squirrel, please shoot me. It's when performance, driving feel and pleasure, reliability, quality of manufacturing and materials, looks, ... geeky over engineered mechanics, classic criteria for a sportscar, ... if Porsche gets a beating on those things by an inexperienced Chinese manufacturer, that's when I (and the Porsche board) will realize Porsche is in trouble.

In the past 2 weeks I have had 2 different people tell me how good Tesla's FSD is, to the point where they let the car do all the driving. 1 of these was a participant at a Porsche Club LA autocross event. I was fine with Tesla's AutoPilot, but FSD made me nervous when I demo'd it 2 years ago. Obviously its a fast moving world out there

 

[CroquetMan]

An interesting string of reactions to the original post! I'm 'old': in my late 70's (shock/horror!) but I love the Taycan. My 2023 4S was my first EV purchased from new. It was an absolute stunner in looks & performance - nothing compared even remotely. I sold it a few months ago taking a predictably brutal hit on the resale. Why did I sell it? It had been 100% faultless, cost next to nothing to run, apart from elevated insurance costs. It was my final dream car which originally I'd intended to keep for 6yrs. But with thoughts of what would have been the looming 8yr battery warranty, plus the relentless rate of battery techno evolution, I decided to quit whilst ahead (at least in terms of unrivalled total fun & enjoyment). In Devon, UK, narrow, slow, winding, roads - poorly maintained - predominate. So, reluctantly putting on my 'sensible' cap, I traded it in after just 3yrs. It's replacement is an Alpine A290 GTS+ EV in a truly stunning Alpine metallic blue which has elicited even more admiring comments than the Taycan! OK, the little Alpine's performance, whilst definitely fiesty, is no match for the Taycan, but everything works faultlessly and electronics are a step up on the Gen 1.1 Taycan. The rear-view camera is so much better and the radio sound quality (as standard) is at least the equal of the Burmester top dollar extra. I'm totally committed to EVs but, as another respondent has said (so amusingly) autonomous driving is even less interesting than rubber floor mats! Car driving is one of life's true pleasures. Long may it remain so. Even if Porsche kill off the Taycan in 2030, I hope sincerely that they will perhaps morph the superb Panamera (yes I've owned one of those, too) into an executive EV, alongside a 718 EV. But they must up their game with their 'volume' offerings if they are to survive financially. I wish Porsche well for the future. The Taycan brought great joy to me! BTW, the Alpine is a full 750 kg lighter than the Taycan!

 

[KLHubb]

An interesting string of reactions to the original post! I'm 'old': in my late 70's (shock/horror!) but I love the Taycan. My 2023 4S was my first EV purchased from new. It was an absolute stunner in looks & performance - nothing compared even remotely. I sold it a few months ago taking a predictably brutal hit on the resale. Why did I sell it? It had been 100% faultless, cost next to nothing to run, apart from elevated insurance costs. It was my final dream car which originally I'd intended to keep for 6yrs. But with thoughts of what would have been the looming 8yr battery warranty, plus the relentless rate of battery techno evolution, I decided to quit whilst ahead (at least in terms of unrivalled total fun & enjoyment). In Devon, UK, narrow, slow, winding, roads - poorly maintained - predominate. So, reluctantly putting on my 'sensible' cap, I traded it in after just 3yrs. It's replacement is an Alpine A290 GTS+ EV in a truly stunning Alpine metallic blue which has elicited even more admiring comments than the Taycan! OK, the little Alpine's performance, whilst definitely fiesty, is no match for the Taycan, but everything works faultlessly and electronics are a step up on the Gen 1.1 Taycan. The rear-view camera is so much better and the radio sound quality (as standard) is at least the equal of the Burmester top dollar extra. I'm totally committed to EVs but, as another respondent has said (so amusingly) autonomous driving is even less interesting than rubber floor mats! Car driving is one of life's true pleasures. Long may it remain so. Even if Porsche kill off the Taycan in 2030, I hope sincerely that they will perhaps morph the superb Panamera (yes I've owned one of those, too) into an executive EV, alongside a 718 EV. But they must up their game with their 'volume' offerings if they are to survive financially. I wish Porsche well for the future. The Taycan brought great joy to me! BTW, the Alpine is a full 750 kg lighter than the Taycan!

I am now 80 and am a great fan of geezers like myself driving fast cars. Those of you familiar with time dilation know that driving fast will lengthen one's life...a very little bit.

 

[tigerbalm]

Google is free. But it is indeed not analog.

I'd use a search engine powered by vacuum tubes!

 

[tigerbalm]

In the past 2 weeks I have had 2 different people tell me how good Tesla's FSD is, to the point where they let the car do all the driving. 1 of these was a participant at a Porsche Club LA autocross event. I was fine with Tesla's AutoPilot, but FSD made me nervous when I demo'd it 2 years ago. Obviously its a fast moving world out there

I feel lucky/privileged because all of my driving is pleasure related. If I'm driving, I'm doing something fun or going somewhere fun. Otherwise, I'm on public transport.

This is one of the main reasons why I think I love Porsche. The 911 (and Taycan) are still great to drive.

The video posted above that shows "distracted driving" with someone being able to be "safely" scrolling on their phone just does not appeal. However, if i was commuting in my car – I can imagine the attraction.

 

[gnr3312]

i feel lucky/privileged because all of my driving is pleasure related. If I'm driving, I'm doing something fun or going somewhere fun. Otherwise, I'm on public transport.

This is one of the main reasons why I think I love Porsche. The 911 (and Taycan) are still great to drive.

The video posted above that shows "distracted driving" with someone being able to be "safely" scrolling on their phone just does not appeal. However, if i was commuting in my car – I can imagine the attraction.

I commute 60 miles round trip daily to work and I can tell you that prior to the Taycan I had seriously considered a self driving vehicle because it felt boring. Not anymore.

 

[Zcd1]

The cars that are capable of some level of autonomous driving are also fully capable of being driven by a human. That’s the beauty of these technologies - they can be used when desired, and by the same token, left inactive when desired. These are additive features, not either/or choices.

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