🤯 Ford EV will get NACS (Tesla) charging port standard! Just announced by CEO's Farley and Musk

[DRR]

and for those that do not know EVERY Tesla ever sold includes once of these adatpers

https://shop.tesla.com/product/sae-j1772-charging-adapter

this adapter is cheap, easy, passive and simply allows _ANY_ NCAS vehicle/port to use a North American standard 120V/240V AC J-1772 EVSE - this is how TEsla's access and charge via all the non-FastDC public chargers - so this same/existing adapter would allow NCAS vehicles to use existing J-1772 EVSE's (like the PMC+/PMCC/WallBox/ClipperCreek etc…).

so with two existing adapters an NCAS vehicle can access all possible charging systems - and any mix of J-1772/CCS/NCAS plugs/adatpers can be provided and you can access any type of charge assuming billing/activation can be worked out.

I wonder if Teslatap will introduce a DC knockoff of the Ford adapter that we can purchase. I already have a Tesla account since my wife has a Tesla. BTW is it NACS or NCAS?

 

[daveo4EV]

I wonder if Teslatap will introduce a DC knockoff of the Ford adapter that we can purchase. I already have a Tesla account since my wife has a Tesla. BTW is it NACS or NCAS?

the issue in my mind is not the physical adapter…or the NACS port on a vehicle.

it's the software to activate the charging session - Tesla controls this - with out access to activate the charging session via software access…you're stuck.

Ford will have this access…

now the other day I charged my daughter's Model Y using my Porsche EA "free 30 minutes" and the Tesla CCS adapter - now people with an adapter and Ford Pass might be able to do something similar - i.e charge other CCS vehicle's using their Ford Pass app to start the session - but that's not general access with just a knock off adapter.

there is no way to activate a charging session at a random Tesla Supercharger site with out Tesla's permission to do so…so we're stuck - the physical adapter is insufficient - you need both the adapter and software authorization (app or vehicle based)

it is NACS (North American Charging Standard) - my apologies if I butchered the acronym in any typo's

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Charging_Standard

the nice thing about standards is there is so many to choose from…

 

[daveo4EV]

I can (and have) charge(d) my 2020 Taycan at a Tesla Supercharger in Scott's Valley, CA with MagicDock's installed - this is allowed via Tesla's software because that site is listed and made available in the Tesla App (controlled by Tesla's servers)

so I can charge there - I have both a physical Adapter (MagicDock) and software access Tesla client/server software allowing me to activate a session at that site.

Now if I aquired/stole/possessed a physical adapter - I lack any mechanism to activate a charging session at nearby Santa Cruz, Watsonville, Monterey, Laguna Seca, Los Gatos - Tesla's app/servers do not allow any access to activate charging sessions at those sites…so I'm stuck only able to use the supercharger's Tesla allows me to use.

the thing about the Ford announcement is not the NACS port or the Adapter - it's the negotiated access to the entire North American network and the fact that Tesla is letting Ford integrate charge session billing/management into Ford's app/vehicle - that's the actual break through here - not the physical port or adapter.

Ford has access to the entire network…that's a big deal.

 

[satchurator]

I wonder if Teslatap will introduce a DC knockoff of the Ford adapter that we can purchase. I already have a Tesla account since my wife has a Tesla. BTW is it NACS or NCAS?

Even if the DC adapter could be cloned, it may still require Tesla to explicitly allow a non-Tesla/non-Ford EV to charge via NACS-to-CCS.

 

[submatrix]

now the other day I charged my daughter's Model Y using my Porsche EA "free 30 minutes" and the Tesla CCS adapter - now people with an adapter and Ford Pass might be able to do something similar - i.e charge other CCS vehicle's using their Ford Pass app to start the session - but that's not general access with just a knock off adapter.

That's cool that that worked. I guess EA is not verifying the vehicle credentials when starting the session. I assume you just started it from your phone, pretending like you were about to plug in your Taycan, and then plugged in the Model Y instead?

 

[daveo4EV]

That's cool that that worked. I guess EA is not verifying the vehicle credentials when starting the session. I assume you just started it from your phone, pretending like you were about to plug in your Taycan, and then plugged in the Model Y instead?

here is the procedure:

1. launch the porsche connect app and find the charging site
   1. get everything ready in the app to avoid fussing around
2. arrive at the site
3. back in
4. find a working stall
5. plug the EA cable into to the Tesla CCS adapter
6. plug the cable+adapter into the Tesla NACS charging port
7. wait for the EA station to complete "talking" to the vehicle
8. once connection is established press 'start charge' on the Porsche app
9. wait for charging session to begin.

this works all the time

here is the adapter Tesla sells for CCS charging

https://shop.tesla.com/product/ccs-combo-1-adapter?web=true

 

[submatrix]

here is the procedure:

1. launch the porsche connect app and find the charging site
   1. get everything ready in the app to avoid fussing around
2. arrive at the site
3. back in
4. find a working stall
5. plug the EA cable into to the Tesla CCS adapter
6. plug the cable+adapter into the Tesla NACS charging port
7. wait for the EA station to complete "talking" to the vehicle
8. once connection is established press 'start charge' on the Porsche app
9. wait for charging session to begin.

this works all the time

here is the adapter Tesla sells for CCS charging

https://shop.tesla.com/product/ccs-combo-1-adapter?web=true

Not that I'm condoning it, but presumably this would mean you could "grant" free charging sessions to anyone as long as you knew which station they were at, right?

 

[daveo4EV]

Not that I'm condoning it, but presumably this would mean you could "grant" free charging sessions to anyone as long as you knew which station they were at, right?

correct - this is something I've never done for friends/family when I'm over 800 miles away - it would be cool to do sometimes and friends/family would be soo grateful if I were to do something like that…but alas that and speeding is something I never do,.

I also think the PMC+/PMCC are the finest EVSE's ever made and very affordable at $3800 for a full kit from suncoast parts, and that Porsche's a reasonably discounted product that offers great value..

 

[whitex]

I'm not sure NCAS addresses the issue sufficiently for access to the fed money - I still think magic dock is not the correct solution for CCS access (unbundling magic dock is the correct answer just like Tesla currently sells a CCS adapter for their vehicles) - I think the adapter should be made generally available for purchase - and app based activation will solve the problem - then any CCS vehicle has access to supercharger sites - Tesla could still control access by not allowing app based activation at some high-congestion sites (most of which BTW are urban and not road trip based)

congested urban Superchargers are less interesting to me because I don't need them to complete a trip and there is normally ample alternatives near by - what i need is supercharger access to those one or two supercharger between remote point-A and remote point-B where congestion is most likely not an issue…

Ford has proven an adapter is available, a business agreement is possible, and the technology "already works" - there is honestly _NO_ reason for other EV vendors to not follow in this space…

NCAS is nice but not required (adapter is fine)
in car charge sessions support is nice but not required (app based activation is fine)

You are making an assumption that a generic adapter would in fact work with the Taycan, even with a software update of the Taycan. Another assumption is that superchargers with magic dock do not have special hardware which other superchargers lack.

Ford cars may have special hardware just waiting to be activated via software to enable this adapter. Note that a similar dependency already exists on Tesla. For example, my old 2015 Model S is simply incompatible with the CCS adapter, with no retrofit possible. My 2018 Model S is also incompatible with the CCS adapter, but there is an onboard charger retrofit available. Both these cars work perfectly with Tesla superchargers, and have identical connectors.

So, magic dock may not be decoupleable to fit any Tesla supercharger, and Ford adapter may require special onboard hardware (could be already in their cars, or they will offer a retrofit like Tesla offers for their newer cars in order to use the CCS adapter).

EDIT: I can think of at least one way for sure that a supercharger with magic dock differs from any plain supercharger - the latter does not require internet connection to function. Magic dock does. Not requiring internet is one of the factors which made Tesla superchargers more reliable.

 

[daveo4EV]

You are making an assumption that a generic adapter would in fact work with the Taycan, even with a software update of the Taycan. Another assumption is that superchargers with magic dock do not have special hardware which other superchargers lack.

Ford cars may have special hardware just waiting to be activated via software to enable this adapter. Note that a similar dependency already exists on Tesla. For example, my old 2015 Model S is simply incompatible with the CCS adapter, with no retrofit possible. My 2018 Model S is also incompatible with the CCS adapter, but there is an onboard charger retrofit available. Both these cars work perfectly with Tesla superchargers, and have identical connectors.

So, magic dock may not be decoupleable to fit any Tesla supercharger, and Ford adapter may require special onboard hardware (could be already in their cars, or they will offer a retrofit like Tesla offers for their newer cars in order to use the CCS adapter).

EDIT: I can think of at least one way for sure that a supercharger with magic dock differs from any plain supercharger - the latter does not require internet connection to function. Magic dock does. Not requiring internet is one of the factors which made Tesla superchargers more reliable.

the fact that supercharger's work in Europe addresses most of your assertions and demonstrate there is not much work remaining if any to make it work with existing vehicles…

it is also a fact that my unmodified 2020 Taycan works at Supercharger's w/MagicDock - I also know that the MagicDock is pretty simple and is mostly passive - I'm not sure what the backend changes to the superchargers are w/Magicdock (software or hardware) - but clearly it can be done and it simply a matter of tesla updating the sites which they would do if there is an agreement to do so - and they will as part of the Ford agreement.

There is no expectation that the adapter contained in the magic dock is significantly different than the one Ford will be distributing in a year to all existing Ford EV's. I would be deeply surprised in any in vehicle ford hardware needs to change to be compatible with the Ford adapter they will freely distribute (OTA software update yes, hardware swap doubtful).

so there is technical path forward and we also know it does not require retrofitting the vehicle otherwise existing CCS vehicles would not work with the MagicDocks or in europe.

in speaking with the Tech's upgrading the Scotts valley site the changes were straight forward to the backend hardware on site…most of the labor was installing the magicdock physical mechanism - this could be avoided if the adapter was sold separately - BYOA - Bring your own Adapter is a path forward with software app support (just like ford is doing).

it's good to have FUD - but there is very little evidence this is a difficult adaptation given that it already works in Europe and so far the same is true in North America for existing CCS vehicle's w/MagicDock superchargers.

now supporting non-app based charging (plug&charge with Tesla) that may require new hardware/software on the vehicle…that I 100% agree with that will likely require new vehicle software and a good change new hardware - NACS 100% requires new vehicle hardware + software because of the combined AC/DC power path ways and the necessary intelligent switching…

but app based activation w/passive CCS/NACS adapter (like the MagicDock and Tesla's existing support already deployed) appears to be a pretty viable and straight forward thing - not much more complex than a TeslaTap for FastDC charging with permission from Tesla and an app to activate the session like we all do with Porsche app for EA…or use Tesla's app like we already can do today w/MagicDock sites.

1.0 app based activation + physical adapter - already mostly proven to work and it's viable with minimal retrofit to existing superchargers (if any retrofit at all is required beyond software update if adapter were available separately) and already works in Europe

2.0 in vehicle plug&charge support w/biling and account will require new vehicle hardware and certainly new software - but this is not requirement to gain access to the supercharger network - see 1.0 approach.

I still consider 1.0 100% viable and 2.0 optional but nice to have.

we have existence proofs in production in North America and Europe that this is viable and already in production and does not require any existing vehicle modifications to allow charing - so it can not be that difficult.

Both Tesla and the vehicle manufactures already know everything they need to do to make this work - they simply lack a business agreement - the technical issues are eitehr non-existant (Europe proves this) or nearly trivial (a physical adapter known to exist and an app for activation) in north america.

again I 100% agree more work is needed for plug&charge integrated support with supercharter - but very little work is required for the known existing path forward … magicdock + Tesla app access to activate a session - slight more software work if it's to be integrated into say the Porsche app…

 

[daveo4EV]

personally all I want is BYOA (bring your own adapter) and Tesla app based activation - ok if we must integrated tesla charging activation in the Porsche app like we have for EA sites today - that will delay things un-necessarily but ok I'll wait…(we all know Tesla could add this support to their app way faster than Porsche can add it - one of the teams is stronger w/software than the other - no doubt)

BYOA + PorscheID based Porsche app based charging support and call it done! NO need to go all in like Ford…it would be nice, but not required - Hell Prosche can even make it a $99/year "subscription" to add support for supercharger activation to their app…this isn't hard.

I'm not asking for NACS or even in car charging activation…screw that.

give me a $250 adapter (ok Porsche will charge $500 - fine) - and either the Tesla app to activate a charging session or integrated into the Porsche connect app with my PorscheID if porsche insists it stays in the family so as not to tell people to use the Tesla app.

nothing more than access to the supercharger network in North American is what I'm requesting - same as I would have in Europe today.

again not a theory, not a rigged demo -existing production this ALREADY WORKS TODAY type of stuff - proven it can work with existing vehicle's with no modifications - there is no debate that this already works - all that is missing is business agreements and some backend server work - by 2024 this could all be history.

 

[whitex]

I also know that the MagicDock is pretty simple and is mostly passive - I'm not sure what the backend changes to the superchargers are w/Magicdock (software or hardware) - but clearly it can be done and it simply a matter of tesla updating the sites which they would do if there is an agreement to do so

Of course it can be done, however if Tesla is going to have to upgrade the supercharger hardware to enable the adapter, it makes more sense to just install the magicdocs during said upgrade - avoid the hassle of selling and supporting an adapter. If you sell adapters and then tell people "you can only use them in special upgraded superchargers", the availability is same as magic dock but now you have to buy and carry an adapter.

To enable Ford, there is a chance that Ford was required to add some trusted computing module (think TPM in PC's, or security enclave in iPhones), to enable secure offline transactions (so that the superchargers can function without continuous internet access and servers having to be up and reachable - help sustain their reliability streak). While this might be possible to do in pure software, it's too easy to hack, extract keys and other secrets, without proper security hardware, so Tesla can refuse to provision such hardware (just like Windows 11 requires TPM2.0). Such a trusted computing module may not exist in the Taycan for example. Note that in Europe Tesla was required to have the superchargers CCS compatible, so they built it that way from the beginning (think if Tesla was including a magic dock with every supercharger ever made for the USA).

Note that Tesla CCS adapter is also pretty simple, mostly a passthrough, and yet, pre 2021 (IIRC) Teslas which are fully compatible with superchargers cannot use the CCS adapter (a retrofit for onboard hardware post 2017 is available). Now, I'm sure Tesla could build an adapter which will not be a passive one, but instead actually ID itself (tie billing to the adapter rather than the car) and make unrestricted CCS available to whatever car. Such an adapter would be complex and expensive, and would not qualify Tesla for the government grants in the same way magic dock does.

PS> I was toying with the idea of extracting charging hardware from a crashed Tesla, tie it to my Tesla account, then build a CCS "server" from the adapter to any CCS car, but after considering the amount of work involved and Tesla's ability to invalidate the crashed car's account (they regularly do it for salvaged cars to kick them off of the supercharger network), I figured it's not worth while.

 

[whitex]

give me a $250 adapter (ok Porsche will charge $500 - fine)

Hmmm... considering Porsche chargers $2,000 for PMC+, while Tesla sells their mobile connector for $200, a $250 adapter would cost $2,500 from Porsche.

 

[whitex]

again not a theory, not a rigged demo -existing production this ALREADY WORKS TODAY type of stuff - proven it can work with existing vehicle's with no modifications - there is no debate that this already works - all that is missing is business agreements and some backend server work - by 2024 this could all be history.

It works on an supercharger with magic doc. No argument it works. No need for any backend agreements either, just use Tesla app. Nobody proved however that you can take the magic doc and use it on all existing superchargers. If it did work as you say, why didn't Tesla just sell an adapter instead of engineering the magic doc? They can still limit which superchargers it works on .

 

[simcity]

Thank you Europe/EU for settling on a charging standard and port/socket years ago. This is only going to drag out complexity in the US.

After reading this thread. Most definitely.

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