'24 GTS ST Build Feedback

[magnitude]

Okay, now I'm really interested in your thoughts considering your background! I actually contracted an acoustical engineering firm for our home theater in a house we're about to build so I greatly respect your field.

Hi bills. I will still reply, after dealing with the whole family having gotten sick over the past night (the “usual” daycare stuff).

Note that I am not specifically an acoustical engineer, or really actually an audio engineer of any kind, but I am a signal processing engineer. And so for example, I know nothing about how to improve room acoustics, but do know how to measure it, to interpret it, and what the math behind it means and how to work it out.

However, audio signals are signals, and for example so called LTI filters are immensely important in audio (both as a result of the physics and engineering of audio, as well as explicitly introduced to counteract the arising effects), and a lot of what I do applies to audio signals pretty strongly as well. So I do have a few things to say!

As for the speakers in the A pillars, it’s pretty simple already: You will likely perceive your talk radio to come more from ear level than “from below”. I say “likely” because in theory, some fancy digital processing can improve that even without speakers at ear level, but even if the BOSE doesn’t, I doubt it’s worth $6k or whatever the Burmester is priced new right now.

In fact, so far I think the Burmester was worth it for me for specific reasons that I will tell, but right now I think the Burmester is not worth its price tag more generally.

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[Washington]

I've only test driven Taycan, but my current and previous 911s all had Bose (audio upgrade was my required option). I didn't want to choose Burmester because I know Bose is good enough - that's watt-wise, you have enough power to heat things clearly even when top down on a high way.

I read about people saying no difference between Burmester and Bose on a Taycan. That's not my experience. I can clearly hear the difference. But I also use B&W 800 series and McIntosh amp in my bedroom.

I think the best is you can test drive and try it out yourself. It's an upgrade, worth the price to me, but I can live with Bose too. Lower than Bose would be a deal breaker for me.

If you listen to talks, audio books 100% time, don't get it.

Okay, now I'm really interested in your thoughts considering your background! I actually contracted an acoustical engineering firm for our home theater in a house we're about to build so I greatly respect your field. Maybe you've even heard of them because it seems like you're in Northern California based on your info under your avatar (not a stalker, haha) which is where they are located (Performance Media Industries, Anthony Grimani and his team).

Based on your expert opinion, can you notice a sound quality difference if all you listen to is compressed, streaming source material? You'll find some say that Burmester would actually sound worse because "junk in, junk out" and better acoustical equipment enhance the negatives (obviously in addition to the positives) from the source material. Even if just listening to talk radio, is there a benefit to Burmester? You mentioned the speakers in the A-pillars so that's at least one positive.



Here's a post that discusses the different weights.

 

[W1NGE]

Too much navel gazing!
The basic brakes are absolutely brilliant. There is no functional benefit to upgrading on a Taycan.
The discs look fine and red callipers are the best especially with black wheels.

Actually, there is less / no brake fade with PSCB than standard iron discs.
Performance therefore is better.

 

[f1eng]

Actually, there is less / no brake fade with PSCB than standard iron discs.
Performance therefore is better.

You've had brake fade with those vast cast iron discs with 6-pot calipers on a road car which uses mainly regenerative braking?
I presume you mean doing long runs on track days?

Fade is temperature dependant and as far as I can see the cooling ducting isn't changed with different disc choices, so from a technical pov a bit baffling to read that.

 

[W1NGE]

You've had brake fade with those vast cast iron discs with 6-pot calipers on a road car which uses mainly regenerative braking?
I presume you mean doing long runs on track days?

Fade is temperature dependant and as far as I can see the cooling ducting isn't changed with different disc choices, so from a technical pov a bit baffling to read that.

I just read the notes from the Porsche Engineer who created PSCB a few years back and other reviews. The brake pads are also of a different design apparently.

I think you'll be surprised come your 2 year service just how much your brake pads have worn - in my case much more than I'd anticipated given the high reliance on recuperative braking.

 

[whitex]

Great find with the option to potentially add the 19.2 KW via Suncoast!

Significantly more expensive than a factory option. IIRC installation is up to 20hrs at whatever your dealer chargers per hour, in addition to the cost of the upgraded charger.

 

[f1eng]

I just read the notes from the Porsche Engineer who created PSCB a few years back and other reviews. The brake pads are also of a different design apparently.

I think you'll be surprised come your 2 year service just how much your brake pads have worn - in my case much more than I'd anticipated given the high reliance on recuperative braking.

The choice of brake pad material makes a big difference to pedal feel and temperature sensitivity.

We had 3 different pads to use with cast iron brakes for different circuit layouts and the complete brake set was different with composite brakes with material density and cooling holes varying depending on requirements. The best braking and feel has the highest wear.

I have noticed on my car that the brake pads wear quite a lot when cleaning up the discs each time I set off and before regeneration kicks in. Because I mainly do short journeys I had already assumed pad usage would not be negligible.

 

[Marmolata]

This is the main (only?) benefit from the PSCB - shiny brake discs so no rust!

that and they empty your retirement account when time to replace. parts alone are over $7,000 usd !

https://www.suncoastparts.com/category/taycanv1brwh.html

i have them as I bought a stock car, and scared to death of the day they need replacing !

 

[whitex]

that and they empty your retirement account when time to replace. parts alone are over $7,000 usd !

https://www.suncoastparts.com/category/taycanv1brwh.html

i have them as I bought a stock car, and scared to death of the day they need replacing !

It could be worse, you could have bough a Taycan with PCCB's.

 

[whitex]

You've had brake fade with those vast cast iron discs with 6-pot calipers on a road car which uses mainly regenerative braking?
I presume you mean doing long runs on track days?

Fade is temperature dependant and as far as I can see the cooling ducting isn't changed with different disc choices, so from a technical pov a bit baffling to read that.

Would larger rotors heat up slower for the same braking (more mass), but also cool faster due to increased surface area?

 

[f1eng]

Would larger rotors heat up slower for the same braking (more mass), but also cool faster due to increased surface area?

Yes but the rate of heating is almost instantaneous because the amount of heat going in is huge for the small amount of thermal mass of a disc.

It is about 40 years ago now, and instrumentation had to be designed and made for any purpose so a bit crude, but I made some little thermocouple "sledges" to ride on the discs to measure heating and cooling rates for designing cooling ducts. The rate of heating was from "running" temp to maximum in less than one data sample so from about 200C to 650C almost instantly, I got a lot of knowledge from the cooling rates of different types of ducting though, race winning knowledge
Trivial to do nowadays with relatively inexpensive and robust infra-red sensors, easy on board data logging, not to mention about 100x bigger budgets!

iirc each disc had the braking power of over 1000hp so overall the braking was about 4-5x more powerful than acceleration.

At the Silverstone experience the guy told us the brakes are capable of decelerating the car from 60mph in half the time the launch gets it there.

 

[whitex]

Yes but the rate of heating is almost instantaneous because the amount of heat going in is huge for the small amount of thermal mass of a disc.

Rate of heating yes, unless the larger rotors stop the car faster (the energy into the rotors is equal to most of the kinetic energy lost, except for what tire wear took). However, for cooling, doesn't larger rotor cool faster in the same air flow? You'd think larger surface area, more heat transfer from the rotor to the passing air, no?

 

[f1eng]

Rate of heating yes, unless the larger rotors stop the car faster (the energy into the rotors is equal to most of the kinetic energy lost, except for what tire wear took). However, for cooling, doesn't larger rotor cool faster in the same air flow? You'd think larger surface area, more heat transfer from the rotor to the passing air, no?

Yes, a larger rotor is easier to cool.
Keeping the brakes in a good temperature window is important for racing.
Having a material that works well cold is more important for a road car most of the time.
Track cars are different and if I had one it would be the lightest car I could find, not any typical modern road sports car - all too fat!

 

[whitex]

Yes, a larger rotor is easier to cool.
Keeping the brakes in a good temperature window is important for racing.
Having a material that works well cold is more important for a road car most of the time.
Track cars are different and if I had one it would be the lightest car I could find, not any typical modern road sports car - all too fat!

Ok, so PSCB's will cool quicker than standard Taycan brakes?

I assume Porsche brakes are better than Tesla Model S, but on a Model S I have experienced brake fade off the track on a handful of occasions. All but one was driving spiritedly through a mountain pass, but it showed me it can happen off the track.

 

[f1eng]

Ok, so PSCB's will cool quicker than standard Taycan brakes?

Possibly, depending on the ducting, flow rate and where they are blowing.

Porsche know plenty about brakes.
I have decades of experience on racing brakes and my view is that inexperienced people speculating without detailed data is probably pointless.
If any of the brake options were needed they would be fitted IMO. Except colour, of course.
I expect the composite would be better after a few laps on a track day, the plated discs will look nicer.

Outside track days the difference is too small to be anything but cosmetic

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