US EV tax credits

Miwa

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Tesla gets $0 now in incentives, and is still selling. GM sold me a loaded Bolt for $32k with no incentives.

EVs will do fine.
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Mr.Smith

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Tesla gets $0 now in incentives, and is still selling. GM sold me a loaded Bolt for $32k with no incentives.

EVs will do fine.
I have a Bolt too and I love the car.
Those record sales for the Bolt are all due to massive discounts. It motivated me, $5500 for a 3 year lease
https://insideevs.com/news/498574/us-chevrolet-bolt-sales-q12021/


Tesla US sales are not growing. All the growth is backlog for new countries and models, even China is not growing anymore hence the heavy exports last month
https://www.reuters.com/business/au...968-china-made-vehicles-july-cpca-2021-08-10/

I predict Tesla will come out with an LFP battery M3 specifically to take advantage of these subsidies, like they cheated their way to in Canada
https://www.thedrive.com/tech/40975...del-3-has-cost-canadian-taxpayers-115-million


An important note: It costs a minimum of $11k-$12k to build a car, add another $15k for the battery, add delaer costs, warrenty reserves etc and there is nothing left for the OEM to reenvest in R&D for EV advancement
 

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I have a Bolt too and I love the car.
Those record sales for the Bolt are all due to massive discounts. It motivated me, $5500 for a 3 year lease
https://insideevs.com/news/498574/us-chevrolet-bolt-sales-q12021/


Tesla US sales are not growing. All the growth is backlog for new countries and models, even China is not growing anymore hence the heavy exports last month
https://www.reuters.com/business/au...968-china-made-vehicles-july-cpca-2021-08-10/

I predict Tesla will come out with an LFP battery M3 specifically to take advantage of these subsidies, like they cheated their way to in Canada
https://www.thedrive.com/tech/40975...del-3-has-cost-canadian-taxpayers-115-million


An important note: It costs a minimum of $11k-$12k to build a car, add another $15k for the battery, add delaer costs, warrenty reserves etc and there is nothing left for the OEM to reenvest in R&D for EV advancement
Tesla sales were up 30% in the U.S. from JAN-DEC. approx 115,000 units vs 90,000. They cannot keep up with the demand.
 
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Because a new model, the Y. Watch price cuts when demand is weak and increase when demand is strong
They have lowered prices even on the Y, indoduced a lease program even earlier for the Y, but raised prices on the Model S
 

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Tesla sales were up 30% in the U.S. from JAN-DEC. approx 115,000 units vs 90,000. They cannot keep up with the demand.
they are selling a huge number of Ys and 3s the model S is weak and the X has cratered.
 


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they are selling a huge number of Ys and 3s the model S is weak and the X has cratered.
From Tesla 10k on capacity. They are not hitting thier numbers for 3/Y.

Prices have steadily decreased in time on all models. Contrast this with cars in higher Demand that are going over MSRP.
Model S has increased by $10k because there is more demand than supply


Porsche Taycan US EV tax credits 20210811_093205


The point is that Tesla will benefit from this tax credit.
Who wouldn't want a base model 3 for $32k or a low monthly payment lease?
 

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From Tesla 10k on capacity. They are not hitting thier numbers for 3/Y.

Prices have steadily decreased in time on all models. Contrast this with cars in higher Demand that are going over MSRP.
Model S has increased by $10k because there is more demand than supply


20210811_093205.png


The point is that Tesla will benefit from this tax credit.
Who wouldn't want a base model 3 for $32k or a low monthly payment lease?
the data you provided is specious and has no bearing in reality.

from a cnbc report
During the quarter, Tesla produced 206,421 vehicles total, including 204,081 of its Model 3 and Y, which are its more affordable mid-range cars. It produced 2,340 Model S and X vehicles, the company said.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/02/tesla-tsla-q2-2021-vehicle-production-and-delivery-numbers.html

the way I figure the product of model S and X is just a bit more than 1.2% of the cars tesla is building.
if that's not cratering I don't know what is.
 
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the data you provided is specious and has no bearing in reality.

from a cnbc report
During the quarter, Tesla produced 206,421 vehicles total, including 204,081 of its Model 3 and Y, which are its more affordable mid-range cars. It produced 2,340 Model S and X vehicles, the company said.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/02/tesla-tsla-q2-2021-vehicle-production-and-delivery-numbers.html

the way I figure the product of model S and X is just a bit more than 1.2% of the cars tesla is building.
if that's not cratering I don't know what is.
Teslas 10k is not as accurate as CNBC? An annualized production rate of 830k, capacity of 950k for just 3/Y.
Forget that data, but with price drops in 3/Y, it proves there is more supply than demand.

Try getting a 992 GT3 for a discount or a Mercedes G63 at a discount.
 


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When you can get a Bolt for $27k here new, there no reason (other than luxury) to subsidize anything over $40k.

Stuff is priced on what people pay, and having a $7500 credit just meant that companies increase MSRP to capture as much of that $7500 as they could. As soon as the credit went away, GM effectively reduced the price of the Bolt without changing the MSRP. (And only Tesla folks are crazy enough to pay MSRP for an american car, as everything else sells at "invoice" or below)
 

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... but with price drops in 3/Y, it proves there is more supply than demand.
I know that at least the model Y has been having monthly price increases, and key features (like the radar which in my opinion is a critical piece of safe self driving hardware) is being removed.

model S and X is just a bit more than 1.2% of the cars tesla is building. if that's not cratering I don't know what is.
Keep in mind that both the S and X were on hold so they could be redesigned from December 2020 until recently for the S and its still on hold for the X. So there should have been close to 0 new S and X in S2 2021.

I own a long range Y which was delivered Dec 2020. The car is fine but it has its quirks: I think the 'auto pilot' is nonsense (it does not drive itself on anything but clear highways) and the range is maybe 75% of the 313 miles which Tesla touts.

With tax and federal and state credits, a well decked out Taycan is about 2x the cost of a long range Y. My Taycan (on order) will replace the Y when it arrives late 2021 or early 2022.

And yes, the U.S. federal EV tax credits do matter to some people even when you are talking about a $100k+ car.
 

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Teslas 10k is not as accurate as CNBC? An annualized production rate of 830k, capacity of 950k for just 3/Y.
Forget that data, but with price drops in 3/Y, it proves there is more supply than demand.

Try getting a 992 GT3 for a discount or a Mercedes G63 at a discount.
first off CNBC is reporting the numbers released by TESLA, any financial media outlet would report the same numbers.

secondly nobody is disputing that tesla isn't building a lot of Y's and 3's. that said the issue is that you disputed my comment regarding the S and X production levels.
you produce as evidence a 10k that is reporting capacities not actual builds, the CNBC reporting was on actual production numbers for Q2 that were released on 7/1/21, hence the specious remark,
SPECIOUS;

adjective
apparently good or right though lacking real merit; superficially pleasing or plausible:specious arguments.
pleasing to the eye but deceptive.

believe whatever you care to but the data I've offered is the only relevant data
 
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Mr.Smith

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When you can get a Bolt for $27k here new, there no reason (other than luxury) to subsidize anything over $40k.

Stuff is priced on what people pay, and having a $7500 credit just meant that companies increase MSRP to capture as much of that $7500 as they could. As soon as the credit went away, GM effectively reduced the price of the Bolt without changing the MSRP. (And only Tesla folks are crazy enough to pay MSRP for an american car, as everything else sells at "invoice" or below)
You make a good point. Both Tesla and GM lowered prices to reflect the $7500 removal of tax credits.
 

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When you can get a Bolt for $27k here new, there no reason (other than luxury) to subsidize anything over $40k.

Stuff is priced on what people pay, and having a $7500 credit just meant that companies increase MSRP to capture as much of that $7500 as they could. As soon as the credit went away, GM effectively reduced the price of the Bolt without changing the MSRP. (And only Tesla folks are crazy enough to pay MSRP for an american car, as everything else sells at "invoice" or below)
First, as has been mentioned, the credit is designed to incentivize car buyers, at all income levels, to purchase BEV's rather than ICE vehicles, for reasons that should be obvious to anyone who is paying attention to the issues around climate change.

The reality is that, for multiple reasons that have nothing to do with the fact that they are perfectly serviceable cars, not everyone is interested in driving a Chevy Bolt or Nissan Leaf class of vehicle. So how do you encourage those buyers who are looking for a more fully featured automobile or an SUV or even a pickup to consider a BEV version? You make the price more attractive relative to a similar ICE model.

It's possible that market forces will, over time, cause people to purchase more BEV's but the idea is to significantly speed up the transition to electric and price mitigation is one of the surest ways to do that. Can this be viewed as a government subsidy of electric vehicles? Sure, but considering that government over the years has given hundreds of billions of dollars in direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry in the US alone, maybe it's time to balance the scales a little.

I agree that perhaps BEV's at the very top of the price range should be phased out of the tax credit. But setting the limit at $40K is much too low and will slow the transition to electric among the most popular classes of vehicles, SUV's and trucks for example, that would provide the most benefit from the switch.
 

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First, as has been mentioned, the credit is designed to incentivize car buyers, at all income levels, to purchase BEV's rather than ICE vehicles, for reasons that should be obvious to anyone who is paying attention to the issues around climate change.

The reality is that, for multiple reasons that have nothing to do with the fact that they are perfectly serviceable cars, not everyone is interested in driving a Chevy Bolt or Nissan Leaf class of vehicle. So how do you encourage those buyers who are looking for a more fully featured automobile or an SUV or even a pickup to consider a BEV version? You make the price more attractive relative to a similar ICE model.
Great comment.

In this same vein, consider a different proposition. The people buying $100k+ cars are absolutely the ones most undeterred by high gasoline prices. If not for excellent EVs at better pricing, we would all be driving AMGs, Panameras, Ms, etc (as mentioned in an earlier post). The goal is to get people off gasoline. The incentive is the BEST way to do it. Limiting it to poorer buyers or cheaper cars ignores the realities of those who are most likely to by an EV presently.

As for roads, the government will have to move to a miles-based tax rather than a gasoline tax. Indeed, at present, the lack of a mileage tax is another incentive for EV drivers.
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