Used 4CT Feedback Request -- Bellevue WA & Deerfield Beach FL

[Jonathan S.]

Time to get serious.
And big time TIA for any feedback – whether useful or just amusing!

Spreadsheet link:
https://tinyurl.com/Used4CT
First tab/page has all 62 used 4CT listings that I could find.
Second has details for two contenders – Bellevue WA and Deerfield Beach FL -- meeting my min build spec:

• 2+1
• Premium (or all the key features a la carte, which is rare)
• HUD
• ACC
• Surround View (lacks a spreadsheet column, b/c I thought it would be on any car with HUD & ACC, but as I was finishing this tome I found it missing on what I had thought would be a third contender, no longer listed here, although that is also simplifying the decision)
• roof rails
• 400V
• heated steering wheel

#s (with "MSRP- my value" based upon selected in the configurator the options that provide any value to me):

Contender commonalities:

• Beyond roadtrip range (even for ICE), so would need to be shipped. However, even the furthest received a quote from Road Runner Auto Transport (recommended by Bellevue) of only $1,545 so not that big a factor.
• Bellevue I might visit in person since I’m flying out to PDX at the end of this month for some skiing (yes, I know it’s summer!), so I could extent the trip a day to head further north. However, I don’t care about cosmetic imperfections, so probably not worth the bother, as what really matters are mechanical issues that I lack the ability to assess.
• But if anyone local wants to inspect in person on my behalf, would be greatly appreciated, and I am happy to buy you something like a gift certificate at your favorite restaurant for you and your wife (or perhaps mistress would be more fitting for a Porsche forum?).
• Since none of these are CPO, what should I do about independent inspection? And battery SoH?
• I would swap out the 21” wheels on all of these for 20”, either used OEM or aftermarket (w/ exact width & offset). So if anyone wants to switch from OEM 20” to OME 21”: this is your big chance at zero cost! I don’t care about minor curb rash, and don’t even care about the tires, since I’ll be swapping them out for Michelin CrossClimate2. If you swing by Western Mass then we could meet at a shop for the transplant operation, or we could just jack up a corresponding wheel on each car at a time (and hope all eight are not stuck to the hub, ugh).
• Both MY22.
• Clean CarFax, although have only phone screen captures for FL, so need to obtain complete version, especially for warranty start date.
• Both lack seat massage, alas. Love that on my A6ar. Although the Taycan 14-way seats are so supportive and comfortable. Plus can’t drive more than ~3hr straight anyway in a Taycan! And maybe will motivate me to stretch occasionally instead of trying to rely on a seat massage for aching muscles.

Differences:

• Only Bellevue has RAS, which was on the 4CT I test drove, and I was relieved that it didn’t feel too big while maneuvering into and out of the dealership lot, etc. Would the non-RAS FL 4CT feel too big? I could find a New England dealer has both versions in the regular Taycan for back-to-back test drives. Although I don’t do much urban driving anyway so not sure how much I should care about this. And yes, I’ve read the prior threads on this.
• However, Bellevue also has other features that I value. But also more mileage. Also higher price, but I’m confident that can come down significantly.
• FL has exterior color hesitation, whereas Bellevue seems nicely bland (even if it is a more expensive color).
• Polar opposites for dealers: Bellevue is Infiniti dealer in Tech Money Central (or at least arch rival to tech capital of Silicon Valley) whereas FL is one-guy boat and car broker/dealer in … FL, ‘nuff said.

Individual assessments (and not that each pic is cropped from the original):


Deerfield Beach FL

https://buywithberk.com/2022-porsche-taycan-4-cro

• Registered Jul ‘22, swapped to used car dealer Nov ’22 for “a new body RR” (might be a texting typo in there somewhere?), then purchased by this small broker for boats and cars in Mar ‘23, which somehow triggered another registration, but he’s driven it less than 300 miles since then (i.e., over the course of five months).
• Has smoking package, but “Car is a non-smoker. Stil smells new inside.” … and my understanding is that this is sometimes spec’ed just for the no-cost storage insert (plus the lack of the smoking package is hardly an assurance of lack of smoking).
• Might have open recall for WNK7, so need to follow up on that.
• I had originally placed Mamba Green on my Do Not Buy list, but … wow, that looks BEAUTIFUL! I would never consider any standout color like yellow, orange, bright red, etc., or the Porsche berry, but although this color is flashy, it’s just so … beautiful. Of course, once I’m driving it through winter grime for backcountry skiing and springtime evening bugz coming back from ski mountaineering it will look – actually, it will still probably look great!
• OTOH, I don’t want people looking at me, or rather, at my car. Then again, even in my ideal Boring Gray color any Taycan will still stand out at trailheads, so perhaps a lost cause regardless of color?
• Bargaining potential so far unknown, as the broker is out of the office until Monday.
• But even at the asking price (which is 2k lower at Autotrader, as reflected in the spreadsheet), by far the best value for mileage of the three contenders.

Bellevue WA

https://www.infinitiofbellevue.com/...oss-turismo-4-awd-4d-wagon-wp0ba2y19nsa67077/

• Traded in at Infiniti dealer, which is definitely open to bargaining, repeatedly asking me already to make a lower offer …
• … which I haven’t done yet, since I’m not sure if I should care about the higher mileage.
• Open to feedback on what I should offer, since I don’t want to make an excessively low offer that might end the back-and-forth prematurely if I come across as entirely unrealistic. Would, maybe .... $85k (i.e., $14..5k off) be ok to start?
• Note that this was not offered for sale until August 8, so barely been sitting there at all.
• Tires have only ~4k, but not a factor since I’ll be replacing the OEM 21” with 20” (although will make the OEM 21” just as attractive for resale or swap as the FL OEM 21”).

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

So you’re looking at a 3k$ difference for options you want, against 14k miles you don’t want (and 6 months of warranty or so).

It’s easy: go with the color you like.

(Seriously, 14k miles on an EV is even less than “breaking in”. And besides, you’re getting a discount on “your MSRP” - you’d pay 3k$ more for a car you would pay 9k$ more according to your own calculation - so what’s the holdup?)

Don’t discount x-country road trips in an EV; both @whitex and I have done this (well, mine was cross-half-country, but I played “red devil on shoulder” for him too, and that’s got to be worth 15% more miles added to my trip), as well as less famous people - the CEOs of Ford, EA and Tesla, possibly others.

Lastly, keep a reason for the A6ar to feel “superior”; you’ll then see in no time how the Porsche driving experience trumps Audi (anything). That’s good for future purchases, and it’ll help Porsche stay in business.

 

[Jonathan S.]

^ Good to know on the mileage, thanks! That makes this decision far more simple, especially when combined with how the third 4CT that I thought was a contender turned out not to have Surround View upon closer inspection (even though it at first seemed to have the entire Premium Package on an la carte basis), plus a fourth was missing HUD. So it's just FL vs WA, and the former has only lower mileage going for it.

So that leaves:

• How to arrange an independent inspection? Or just trust that a Bellevue Infiniti dealer is trustworthy, especially for a vehicle with regular maintenance at the local Porsche dealer? And now worry about SoH, especially since the threads on that were relatively reassuring?
• What $ offer to give?

Oh, and roadtripping ... instead of flying back from PDX on Sep 2, I could (at least in theory), cancel my return flight, convert my rental to a one-way with SEA dropoff (instead of PDX), then drive home. Hmm. Although $1,545 isn't all that bad to pay for shipping.

 

[Jonathan S.]

Hmm, road trip math ... looks like 50 hours total on-road time including charging stops.
Could take delivery Friday evening, September 1, after skiing Mt Hood in the morning.
Just realized that I absolutely need to be back home by late Thursday morning, September 7.
So that gives me five full days of driving to cover about 50 hours of on-road time.
Which is feasible, but doesn't allow for detours to visit friends along the way, hmm...

 

[JIP1080]

I drove two STs back to back in suburban surroundings, one with and one without RAS. The two places I noticed any difference were during tight U-turns and parking in the tight dealer lots between Lamborghinis and Ferraris. In normal around (suburban) town driving it was not perceptible. My driving profile is 70% suburban, 20% highway, 10% urban. I honestly don't need RAS, but I still decided it was a must for parking lot maneuvering.

Similar to you, I originally wanted a subdued color. Either Gentian or Dolomite. Somehow I fell in love with Carmine. To get over my anxiety of "they're all going to look at me" I did some mental gymnastics while driving down the road, realizing I actually despised the lack of interesting and beautifully designed cars I saw around me. Taycans are exceptional. Let's help make the road more beautiful and interesting! Also, I threw rationality out the window and went with my heart. I wanted something I couldn't stop looking at. No way I'll see others looking if all I can see is my car .

I wouldn't worry about the mileage. If anything it tells me the car is more likely to be trouble-free. Hard to accumulate miles on a car that's in the shop constantly.

I always heard I should add the smoking package because it's the only free option. As far as I can tell it's pointless and is not an indicator of a smoker/non-smoker car.

While I'd be more inclined to trust the Infiniti dealer, the industry in general doesn't have the most trustworthy reputation. To me it is worth the peace of mind to get an independent inspection. The seller will tell you their mechanics inspected it and it's fine, but do those mechanics have training on Porsches and specifically the Taycan? You're going to sign paperwork that states you are buying the car as-is. How comfortable are you doing so without an inspection or CPO warranty?

I bought from out of state and specifically flew out to view and drive the car. It was a few hundred bucks spent for significantly higher confidence in spending a large chunk of change. Given the cost of these cars it's a drop in the bucket to make sure it's the right one. That said, I decided against driving it home (~800 miles) as this is my first electric car and ABRP didn't give me a lot of confidence in the route. It also would have tripled the car's mileage . Many others have done cross country trips without issue. Your comfort level for adventure should be the determining factor.

Both cars sound great. I don't think you'll go wrong with either one. Sometimes the deciding factor shouldn't be something you can capture on a spreadsheet. Which did you fall asleep envisioning yourself driving and smiling in? Which did you think about first when you woke up? Which are you more likely to kick yourself for letting get away if it sold out from under you tomorrow?

Whichever you choose, I hope you have the largest grin possible with every mile you drive!

 

[JIP1080]

Could take delivery Friday evening, September 1, after skiing Mt Hood in the morning.
..

I grew up training on Hood during the summers! Hopefully you get a chance to grab a shake at Hucks (Huckleberry Inn) after!

 

[Hirschaj]

roof rails

I have not read through all of the comments so please forgive me if someone already brought this up. Since roof rails are on your "must have" list...are you aware of the issue with glass roof cracking that seems to be related to having roof rails? This issue doesn't seem to be pervasive but there have been enough complaints on the forum here that I feel it should be considered when deciding on roof rails or not. The more you know.

 

[jkoya]

I agree with @WasserGKuehlt and go with the color you like. I have Mamba Green and I love it !! In my area of Northern CA, nobody pays attention to the car or its color. It's just a station wagon to most folks in the parking lot.

Beyond roadtrip range (even for ICE), so would need to be shipped. However, even the furthest received a quote from Road Runner Auto Transport (recommended by Bellevue) of only $1,545 so not that big a factor.

This sounds quite cheap. I'm assuming it's an open carrier being transported with other cars ? I had a car damaged on an open carrier once and the next time I shipped I used an enclosed carrier that only held 2 cars and the price was about double the cost of an open carrier. This was pre-pandemic pricing.

You might be better off driving the car home from WA and enjoying a nice road trip - and you can post a lot of pics along the way !!

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

@Jonathan S. lots of good advice from all the previous posters. I’ll add my 2c:
- P of Bellevue is across the street (and they’re probably owned by the same company). It’s too early IMO for “independents” to provide a better pre-purchase inspection service than a specialized dealer.
- It’s interesting the dealer kept this car for themselves instead of trading with Porsche. Could be interpreted as wagons still being rare, and this one draws interest (or it’s too soon/just came in). Either way, if you’re interested find a way to reserve it. If it goes across the street it might become CPO and get a price bump.
- it’s my observation/opinion that the densely traveled (or populated) areas have all of the charging station problems. Around here I’ve only encountered one really bad situation (all chargers down), but otherwise it’s been uneventful. If you do decide to drive it back, plenty of long trip reports around here for your reading pleasure.
- how much to offer: not more than their asking price . And since you have the data, the lowest price of a similar-miles car in your spreadsheet (minus a couple k) would be a decent starting point. How badly do you want it?

I’m not a fan of this, but if you really are set on this one, I could stop by to take a look, kick the tires and try to get a reading of the SoH. (‘This’ being ‘interacting with dealers’.)

 

[whitex]

It’s interesting the dealer kept this car for themselves instead of trading with Porsche. Could be interpreted as wagons still being rare, and this one draws interest (or it’s too soon/just came in).

Or the offer they got from Porsche was low, and they thought they could do better on their own. Primary reason why people sell privately, because dealers often offer wholesale or less.

 

[whitex]

I’m not a fan of this, but if you really are set on this one, I could stop by to take a look, kick the tires and try to get a reading of the SoH. (‘This’ being ‘interacting with dealers’.)

If you do it, perhaps snap a bunch of pictures, test drive, read SoH.

 

[Jonathan S.]

Many thanks for all the feedback!

So, just using regular quotes and paraphrasing to save time...

“I honestly don't need RAS, but I still decided it was a must for parking lot maneuvering.”
- That matches up my impressions from other threads: definitely a plus, but unless you’re doing lots of parallel parking, etc., not a deal breaker. So, advantage Bellevue!

“I wouldn't worry about the mileage. If anything it tells me the car is more likely to be trouble-free. Hard to accumulate miles on a car that's in the shop constantly.”
- I was also thinking along those lines: any initial kinks have been worked out, or at least previously fixed. So, eliminates a potential FL advantage.

“I always heard I should add the smoking package because it's the only free option. As far as I can tell it's pointless and is not an indicator of a smoker/non-smoker car.”
- Thanks for confirming my impression of that. I’ll cross it off the concern list. So, eliminates a potential FL disadvantage.

“[...] the [car dealership] industry in general doesn't have the most trustworthy reputation.”
- That’s putting it mildly!

“[...] but do those mechanics have training on Porsches and specifically the Taycan?”
- At an Infiniti dealer, exactly none.

“How comfortable are you doing so without an inspection or CPO warranty?”
- The prior owner put on ~4k miles since the last Porsche dealer service. So, enough time for something to start going wrong.
- The problem though is that a personal inspection by me will reveal exactly nothing. I don’t care about minor exterior dings, curb rash, interior whatevers. Especially since in about a year I’ll probably beat it up far more. (Not abusing it, but backcountry trailheads, muddy ski mountaineering gear, gravel bikes – I try to be careful, but wear & tear is inevitable.)
- I’m happy to pay for an inspection, but by ... whom? The Porsche dealer is literally across the street. (Then MB is adjacent to Porsche. And across the other street from Porsche is of course a Whole Foods, whose store where I live is where I most often see Porsche, but Macan obviously.)
- Should I ... ask Infiniti if they would coordinate an inspection by Porsche? To be paid for by ... me? Infiniti? Or maybe make an offer contingent on Infiniti paying for the inspection and contingent on everything being ok?

“Sometimes the deciding factor shouldn't be something you can capture on a spreadsheet.”
- Blasphemy!
- In all seriousness, I prefer the Bellevue build, as I’ll appreciate those add’l features.

“I grew up training on Hood during the summers! Hopefully you get a chance to grab a shake at Hucks (Huckleberry Inn) after!”
- Nice! (Although what are you doing in Atlanta now?) The two high-speed quads have really changed the training scene there now. Although we’ll be skinning off on the periphery, the massive lines of old have disappeared. And the jibonker scene shows up when the racers clear out, so that works out really well for essentially having two shifts each day. (Or three if you count when we start poaching the Palmer for skinlaps in the afternoon once the lifts stop.)

“Since roof rails are on your "must have" list...are you aware of the issue with glass roof cracking that seems to be related to having roof rails? This issue doesn't seem to be pervasive but there have been enough complaints on the forum here that I feel it should be considered when deciding on roof rails or not.”
- Yipes, now I am!
- Sounds like it’s still something I want, but somewhat that should be inspect to ensure that it doesn’t have some cracks that might get worse?
- Also seems like something that would be covered by warranty? Of course, would probably takes weeks or months to get the replacement...

“This sounds quite cheap. I'm assuming it's an open carrier being transported with other cars?”
- Correct. Complete pricing is $1,545 open, plus a trivial $99 for ensuring a place on top, or plus $850 for being enclosed.
- My thinking was that the car is going to be driven on roads anyway. But perhaps another $850 will ensure peace of mind against damage en route, especially talking about thousands of miles?
- Or would the $99 for being on top suffice?

“You might be better off driving the car home from WA and enjoying a nice road trip - and you can post a lot of pics along the way !!”
- The problem is the timing, since I’d have only five full days, so I’d mainly have to drive those five days, with limited opportunities for fun detours. Some chance I could change the schedule though, tbd.

“(and they’re probably owned by the same company)”
- Porsche Bellevue is AutoNation. I’m pretty sure that Infiniti is something else (although I haven’t figured out which yet), b/c Porsche Bellevue uses AutoNation email addresses, but Infiniti does not.

“How badly do you want it?”
- If I have reassurances as to condition, and if they’ll come down to $90k, then I’ll wire the $ immediately. Higher than that, I might think about it...
- If it gets away, I can take the FL one, or just wait, either for used, or buy new.

“I’m not a fan of this, but if you really are set on this one, I could stop by to take a look, kick the tires and try to get a reading of the SoH. (‘This’ being ‘interacting with dealers’.)”
- Thanks for the offer, I really do appreciate that! Although sounds like the better option is to have it inspected at Porsche across the street?

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

Re: inspection: yes, you’d ask Infiniti to take the car in for inspection across the street. You’d pay P of Bellevue for the inspection, and it’s probably going to be $220 + tax (min). The only thing I could do is run the CarScanner on it, assuming they’d allow it. Lmk (DM)

Re: price: 90k would be a deep discount. I’m sure they’ll sit on it for another month rather than go so low. I’d think opening at 95 is reasonable.

Re: roof: I too read the one case reported here. I wouldn’t worry about it. I’ve had my cross bars and roof box on for almost all of the 11k miles on mine, does triple digits just fine. I do keep it on all the time, though, wouldn't want to drop a tool or the box accidentally on the roof.

Re: the trip: 900 miles/day is easily doable - the car is very comfortable, and an absolute continent crusher.

 

[JIP1080]

“How comfortable are you doing so without an inspection or CPO warranty?”
- The prior owner put on ~4k miles since the last Porsche dealer service. So, enough time for something to start going wrong.
- The problem though is that a personal inspection by me will reveal exactly nothing. I don’t care about minor exterior dings, curb rash, interior whatevers. Especially since in about a year I’ll probably beat it up far more. (Not abusing it, but backcountry trailheads, muddy ski mountaineering gear, gravel bikes – I try to be careful, but wear & tear is inevitable.)
- I’m happy to pay for an inspection, but by ... whom? The Porsche dealer is literally across the street. (Then MB is adjacent to Porsche. And across the other street from Porsche is of course a Whole Foods, whose store where I live is where I most often see Porsche, but Macan obviously.)
- Should I ... ask Infiniti if they would coordinate an inspection by Porsche? To be paid for by ... me? Infiniti? Or maybe make an offer contingent on Infiniti paying for the inspection and contingent on everything being ok?

“Sometimes the deciding factor shouldn't be something you can capture on a spreadsheet.”
- Blasphemy!
- In all seriousness, I prefer the Bellevue build, as I’ll appreciate those add’l features.

“I grew up training on Hood during the summers! Hopefully you get a chance to grab a shake at Hucks (Huckleberry Inn) after!”
- Nice! (Although what are you doing in Atlanta now?)

As was already mentioned, yeah, the Porsche dealer across the street is the way to go for the inspection. Hopefully the worst they come back with is suggesting a brake fluid flush and a cabin air filter!

When trying to figure out what car I was going to buy I built a spreadsheet as well. But it was everything from a Rivian R1T to an Aston Vantage, an R8 to an RS6 Avant. I kept coming back to the GTS ST for reasons the spreadsheet didn't effectively capture, and then I hit the lottery finding one and figured it was just meant to be!

The PDX -> ATL move was down to a choice of universities. I was deciding between UW in Seattle or GT in Atlanta. It was 45 & pouring down rain during the UW visit, 75 & sunny in Atlanta (with no humidity... I later learned the hard way that I'd been tricked). I'd had enough of rain at that point. I was also looking into skiing on the UW team up in Seattle, but that seemed like a dead end post-college. I decided I'd head down to GT and race cars instead with their FSAE team (I'd also grown up karting). There's a good amount of amateur car racing down here and some incredible tracks close by.

 

[rs67]

I live in bellevue, so also happy to take a look for you. and would be interested in swapping wheels if you go the bellevue route on purchase. I sent a dm.

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