Taycan Range & Charging Reality

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by PanameraFrank, Sep 7, 2019.

  1. PanameraFrank

    PanameraFrank Member

    First Name:
    2017 Panamera Turbo
    Sep 6, 2019
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    As someone that owns a Porsche and has spent a few months driving EVs, I think it's important we talk about the reality of the Taycan when it comes to range & charging. The marketing simply doesn't match the reality of the technology, and dealers will, frankly, BS you with talk about the subject. For anyone with more experience in EVs, please jump in and let's get an accurate expectation for the ownership experience of a Taycan.

    Here's what we know factually;
    -If you are ONLY using the Taycan for city driving and no trips longer than 100 miles, you will have absolutely no problems. Period. Every EV on the market is absolutely beyond capable in this situation.
    -The MAX range on the Taycan 94kwh battery is 290 miles. This is using Eco mode, driving no faster than 70 MPH, with air conditioning/heat off. We know this from Porsche's press release, regarding a trip from Niagra Falls to New York City.
    -The nominal range of a Taycan in Normal drive mode at 95% charge is approx. 217 miles according to the on board computer.
    -A 71% charge takes 24 minutes in an ideal situation. So about 20 seconds for 1% of charge in ideal conditions. Ideal conditions = fully functioning charger at max output, between 10%-85% battery charge, moderate temperatures (60-80 degrees).

    What this means;
    -The range numbers and technology are very similar to an iPace or eTron. The iPace & eTron can, technically, make a 280 mile trip in ideal circumstances and typically shows around 210 miles in Normal mode on a mostly full charge. They also have severe battery inefficiencies that hopefully will not be as severe in the Taycan but will be present, due to the technology used.
    -Charging in an ideal situation is relatively good but not amazing.

    Things to anticipate;
    -Expect to lose 10% immediately if you turn on air conditioning, heat, or ventilated seats. Heated seats & steering wheel should have a less dramatic effect.
    -Expect to lose 15-30% by turning on Sport mode; 25-50% by turning on Sport Plus
    -Expect a significant acceleration event to lose between 0.2% and 5% of the battery charge immediately.
    -Expect consumption at speeds above 60 MPH to increase exponentially. While the 2-speed transmission is touted as being more efficient at highway speeds, being slightly more efficient at a very inefficient activity is still inefficient.
    -Expect range that includes significant altitude gain to be as much as halved; range with significant altitude loss can be as much as doubled.
    -Expect every stop at an Electrify America charger to take an additional 10-40 minutes over expected charge time. EA chargers are notoriously horrible, with issues even getting a charge started. Also realize using an EA charger is generally equal the cost of gas. If you have a route that you'd routinely use the Taycan for, do an advanced trip and stop at the chargers you'd use.

    Comparing the Taycan to the iPace or eTron should end up being similar range numbers and charging similar to the eTron but much better than the Jag.

    Real world this means;
    -If driving like a Porsche outside of the city, real range is 100-180 miles. You will never hit 200 miles of range on spirited driving outside of a city. Period. End of story.
    -If you're taking advantage of the continuous 0-60 runs expect to get sub 100 miles of range.
    -Always plan a route for longer trips, look up reviews on the chargers, and expect to get a lower charge rate and a delay upon arrival.

    If this works for you, I'd expect the Taycan to be a better version of the Panamera and the best EV on the market (price not taken into consideration). But be aware that first production EVs almost always have significant issues and recalls and Porsche is introducing technology that has not seen real world use. The transmission could end up being a significant problem.

    If you can wait, I'd highly recommend giving Porsche a year or two to work out the kinks. They've already said models within the next year or two will have superior technology; so if you buy now you're getting inferior technology to act as a guinea pig. Now, again, if you're only using it for city driving I don't see why you would need to wait. Even if you run into issues you're likely in the city with your Porsche dealer and get a pretty loaner while they work on any problems. The upgraded tech isn't really relevant for pure city life.

    I'd love to hear any more input on this. While much of this is speculation, it's based on the facts of the technology Porsche has used and all of the official information we have received. Dealers & Porsche will always upsell the range & charging but what they claim is no where near the reality. This goes for ALL EVs currently sold. Go to Jag or Audi or Tesla and they will claim EPA (or above) ratings are accurate which is simply 100% false.
    Ron and Rotordude like this.
  2. Rotordude

    Rotordude Well-Known Member

    Jul 16, 2019
    Toronto- downtown
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    Aviation Finance
    This is a great post! Ill add, as a high end ev track car, this is a huge win/ deal.

    As a high end daily driver saloon, huge fail! Nobody on this forum has asked the other big question.....what happens to those batteries over the years? They’re warrantied for 8yrs/130000k, at 70% charge(?), I believe. An ice Panamera turbo, equivalently priced, after 8 years, doesn’t have to ditch its power plant.

    Mileage reduction guaranteed with lesser battery capacity. Mileage increases with well seated older ice engines.

    There’re something just not right about their own claimed 450km range, given the extensive high end engineering they’ve marketed.......flat copper vs round, efficient motors, coasting with foot off the throttle in lieu of regen......etc! 450km WLTP may equal 405 EPA. Add air con/heat, snowy winter........300km EPA?
    Ron likes this.
  3. Litigator

    Litigator Member

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    430i Convertible
    Aug 22, 2019
    New Jersey
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    Where did they say better tech in the next two years?
    Rotordude likes this.
  4. Friedrich

    Friedrich Well-Known Member

    First Name:
    Future: 2020 Porsche Taycan, 2022 Tesla Y; Current: Boxster S, Acura MDX; Past: 66 VW Beetle, 82 Porsche SC Targa, 91 Acura NSX, 98 Porsche Carrera Cabr, 2002 Porsche Carrera Cabr, 2004 Porsche Cayenne S
    Apr 30, 2019
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    Commercial Real Estate Landlord
    Two years may be wishful thinking....maybe 6 years.......but the future looks great!



    From Cnet article on electrified Boxster and Cayman"
    "Porsche insiders citing studies carried out by parent company Volkswagen say they anticipate a rapid evolution of lithium ion cells for an improved energy-to-weight ratio in the next generation of batteries. Estimates are that cell energy density both by volume and weight will increase by 25% from 2019 to 2025.

    BBWbD6S.jpg© Provided by Haymarket Media Group
    By 2025 they also expect the adoption of solid-state batteries to bring a further increase of 25%. This would allow Porsche to pack more energy in the same space with no additional weight penalty.

    A £76 million investment by Volkswagen in QuantumSc"

    Another unrelated article on new solid state battery technology for cars:

    All of the articles are interesting reading!!!
    charliemathilde likes this.
  5. Nick

    Nick New Member

    First Name:
    Porsche Panamera
    Oct 2, 2019
    New Jersey
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    #5 Nick, Oct 4, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
    It’s a great thread so I thought I’d chime in and bring up some interesting information.

    First of all, after Taycan release I was really thinking about buying turbo version next year. Since there are 30k reservations already it’s impossible to buy it right away. But just recently I dug up some info that radically changed my intentions. Before I go into explaining what I’ve found I’d like to add to the OP list of disadvantages of owning an EV.

    -In cold weather battery efficiency falls to as low as 60% for an EV. Not the case with gasoline cars.

    -According to Tesla forums an EV loses 1% charge in one day if it’s parked and not being used for that period. Parking it in ice cold weather may make the car lose 2-3% charge in a day. Gasoline cars don’t suffer from that at all.

    -Say if you want to travel long distance to visit your relatives in another state some 700 miles away your route may prolong by another 200-300 miles since there may not be a charging station on your normal route. Things may go very bad if it’s freezing cold. Imagine being stuck in the mid of nowhere with zero charge left on your car battery. Gas cars are good for 300+ miles on full tank and you never need to adjust your route because you can find a gas station in every 10 miles of range or less.

    To solve all those disadvantages BEVs have to be good for at least 600 miles on highways on a single charge. Guess what EV has that range? None. Except yet to be released Tesla Roadster 2.0 which is coming in 2020. Now there is something ridiculous about this car. How the hell this tiny car has 200 kWh battery? I made some deep dive research on this issue. Based on this web site https://ev-database.org/car/1167/Tesla-Roadster roadster has these estimated dimensions:

    Length *

    4200 mm

    Width *

    2000 mm

    Height *

    1200 mm

    Wheelbase *

    2800 mm

    which can’t be wrong by a huge margin.

    The most compact battery Tesla is using is Model 3 75 kWh battery. The full assembly has these dimensions 92x61 inches. I couldn’t find its height but based on pictures it’s around 13.5 cm on its thinnest spot. Model 3 wheel base is 2875 mm, which is only 7.5 cm longer than that of roadster. So a slightly shorter battery than that of model 3 will fit in roadster with no problem. I specifically rewatched roadster unveil on youtube and here is what Elon Musk said about the car: “It has tons of storage.... You can bring lots of luggage... it’s a real car, not just crammed in.” So we can conclude that there are no batteries in either frunk or the trunk on this car. The only place for battery is the usual car floor. There is no way you can fit 200 kWh battery on roadster with an estimated 40 cm battery assembly thickness with existing battery technology. Roadster height is 1200mm. If you try to fit that battery in only very small people or kids of 12 year age or less will be able to drive it. So how on earth a roadster, such a tiny car can have 200 kWh battery? There can be only One answer to that question. Tesla has its hands on a Brand new battery technology.

    Now, I also did deep dive research on new battery technologies that are being researched. So far, all those researches are in a state of perpetual research and testing. None have a working battery with huge capacity and charge cycles except one company called Innolith AG. The company claims achieving 1000 wh/kg energy density and 55k full charge/discharge cycles battery endurance. In contrast Tesla’s best battery, which is model 3 battery, has 247 wh/ kg energy density and around 500 charge/discharge cycles based on 160k mile warranty on the battery. I’ve read everything that could be read on their website (innolith.com). According to the company the breakthrough was achieved 18 months ago (and released to the press on April 4, 2019) which nicely coincides with Tesla roadster unveil in November, 2017. It’s also being mentioned that they have been receiving investments in the amount of tens of millions dollars from “unnamed investor.” Guess who might that be.

    Personally, I don’t like Tesla cars. They make decent cars to be honest, but they are nowhere luxury, nowhere as good as Mercedes or Porsche in regards to driving experience, and nowhere near to a racing car.

    It’s my opinion that Tesla will most likely have Innolith battery on their roadster in 2020 - not a huge problem for Porsche since they target $250k+ audience. But I expect Tesla to equip their “luxury,” more expensive model S’es with at least 300+kWh batteries with 1000 mile range in 2021. That would be a huge blow for Taycan sales. Unless Porsche wakes up and starts testing Innolith batteries right now. Have no doubt on me preordering Taycan with 300+ kWh battery.

    It would be interesting to hear what you guys think about this.
  6. Miwa

    Miwa Member

    First Name:
    Porsche Macan GTS
    Oct 3, 2019
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    I drive a Macan GTS, and the wife drives a Bolt EV (she drives 80mi RT daily, and she sold a Mk3 TT-S to get it). I usually need to fill up around 225 miles on my Porsche. And I can't do that at home. While my wife always has a full "tank" every morning. Anything with a 200mi + range is going to absolutely not be an issue for the vast, vast majority of drivers.

    If I need to road trip, I'm not taking the Taycan, I'm just going to call up Silvercar and rent a Q7. I have to do that now anyway for trips to Tahoe, and if I'm headed to SoCal, I'd rather have a rental take the abuse.

    As for Tesla, I seriously considered buying a Model S when I sold my first R8. It was my first choice until I sat in one and drove it. I know they've improved, but my goodness, what a POS that car was. Fit an finish was terrible, and for a car with a $115k MSRP (at the time, this was a P85+), it was seriously lacking in luxury, and it drove like a giant boat.

    The Roadster isn't a competitor to the Taycan, unless you are purely looking at numbers on a piece of paper, but no Porsche really wins on a spec sheet.

    Battery tech is improving, but incrementally. I look at the EV market just like the smartphone market was in 2006. We are past the early times, and the advances aren't nearly as dramatic as they were 5 years ago. There hasn't been as much advancement since the release of the Bolt EV nearly 3 years ago as there was in the 3 years before the Bolt.

    The Model S will have more range, and will have a faster version of the Taycan. None of that matters. They'll still have shit quality, and a dearth of options. You have to ask yourself why anyone buys a 911. The engine is in the wrong place, and you could get a Mustang or Corvette that's faster for a lot cheaper. That's the same thing with every single model Porsche has. Have you looked at what a Cayenne Turbo costs? If price is your primary driver, then Porsche isn't your brand. Audi will have the e-tron GT (and it'll even have Android Auto!), and absent a "GTS" version of the Taycan, I might wait out information on that car instead of ponying up for the Taycan Turbo, given I'd usually choose the GTS version of any other Porsche over the Turbo also.

    We leased the Bolt, because I knew resale value on an EV is absolute garbage (plus the lease was a great deal). I'd expect the Taycan to be no better. Luxury 4-door sedans already have terrible resale value, so I don't really expect the Taycan to fare well at all. We'll see how the lease numbers work for the Taycan, but given Porsche's usually-crappy leases, I'm not expecting much.
    charliemathilde and Tye like this.
  7. charliemathilde

    charliemathilde Well-Known Member

    Aug 11, 2019
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    Elon has stated the target was 400 wh/kg. I don’t think they’ll hit 1000 anytime this decade. Tesla is great but not 3x smarter than the rest of the world combined. The 2020 roadster is already delayed to 2021, and Elon has already stated they won’t hit 1.9s 0-60 as originally promised either. The roadster would also perform better overall if they reduced range and put in some of their newly acquired Maxwell ultracapacitors like the newest Lambo. Since the car isn’t close to release yet, I’d treat all its specs as tentative. If it “only” got 450 to 500mi range with a 0-60 for 2.0 at a price of $250K (all specs worsened from 2017 announcement) it’s still be one of the greatest production cars ever made.

    btw there are a lot of smart people who think the answer to your question about how Tesla could do that is “they won’t”

    as for Porsche, they can trim prices a little and stay in a completely different demographic than a $250K super car
    TheSnape likes this.

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